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Monkeywrenching the Batholiths
by Ingmar Lee
Hi everyone; this morning at 8:00am, July 14/09, I proceeded to the Denny Island aerodrome, located on Denny Island in the midst of the BC Central Coast archipelago, aka "The Great Bear Rainforest" where I broke open the welded steel cover and dismantled and destroyed a large seismic shot which was slated for blasting in the early morning hours of July 17th, 2009. I took this action alone, without the participation or knowledge of any other person, association or organization. I accept full and sole responsibilty for my action and look forward to the consequences."Batholiths Station # 35", Denny Island BC, (see map) was drilled to a depth of 50 metres and loaded with between 600 and 1000 kilograms of dynamite according to personal communications with Dr. John Hole of the Dept. of Geosciences, Virginia Tech, University of Virginia, chief proponent of the "Batholiths Onland Seismic Program 2009".
The shot was scheduled to be detonated as part of a chain of as many as 50 similar blast sites arrayed between Denny Island, along Dean and Burke Channels, through the Bella Coola valley, across the Chilcotin all the way to Quesnel, BC.
I took this action for the following reasons:
I took this action for the following reasons:
a) there has been no prior community information, consultation or discussion whatsoever with anyone here on Denny Island (pop approx.80) regarding this massive detonation. It was only after the arrival of the drills that people became aware that something was up. By the time anyone learned anything, the hole had been drilled and irreversibly loaded with its enormous charge. Dr. Hole has written that his expectation was that the Shearwater Resort, Heiltsuk Nation and the CRD had accepted responsibility to communicate details of the project to the various affected communities. A Shearwater Resort spokesman acknowledged that their tug and barge had been contracted to deliver drills to the island several weeks ago, but beyond that, they had no knowledge of the project. He asserted to me that the Shearwater Resort had not been approached, nor had they undertaken any commitment to handle any sort of Public Relations process to describe the project to the local community. I believe that it is unlikely that the Heiltsuk Nation or CRD have any agreement with the Batholiths proponents to disseminate information, or to conduct any PR process, -at any rate, nobody in our community has been informed or knew anything about it. I live with my family within 1 km of the blast site, as do numerous neighbours. Apparently their intention was to simply shock us out of our beds.
b) the previous incarnation of the project (Batholiths Marine Seismic Program 2007) was terminated, -basically because people did not want to see our whales driven screaming onto the beach with bleeding eardrums as a result of ocean-based seismic-source concussions. In fact, Canada's National Science and Engineering Research Council (NSERC) withdrew funding for Batholiths 2007 based on these concerns. I believe that the proponents of the current project have been purposely secretive, are extremely negligent and have avoided informing local communites about their latest scheme, -perhaps on account of having failed to complete their first effort because of public concern.
c) there are at least 5 Sandhill crane nests within 2 kilometres of the Denny Island blast site. Local Sandhills have only recently hatched their chicks which are currently in their most vulnerable pre-flight stage. As a 3rd-year field assistant on the "Coastal Sandhill Crane Research Project" I can attest to the extreme sensitivity of these cranes. We receive more reports of local crane sightings from the Denny Island aerodrome than from any other location in our study area. Additionally, the Denny Island blast site is within 1 kilometre of the significant Kajustus salmon system, locally known for its sockeye salmon. From what information is available, no research is being conducted to monitor the effects of such a massive blast on Sandhills, birds of any species, salmonid eggs, fry, fish or any other wildlife. Additionally, no study, no research is available from the proponents which demonstrates a prior understanding of whatever effects there may be.
d) recently, the "Great Bear Rainforest" was recognized as a significant tract of intact primaeval wilderness which warranted special environmental protection. Recently, the Campbell BC government and several collaborative environmental organizations announced that they had developed a plan which would see future developments in the GBR were to be managed according to a set of principles designated "Ecosystem Based Management." While many of us in the BC environmental community see this deal as simply a Greenwash PR ploy which does little to protect this areas magnificent wilderness, nevertheless, it was purported that all development in this area now requires extensive community consultation and discussion in local communities, and in particular with First Nation communities. This latest incarnation of the Batholiths Seismic scheme clearly entirely fails to respect these principles.
I have personally requested Dr. Hole to at least withdraw the Denny Island hole from his blast program. He has refused to answer this request. Today, a large amount of seismic equipment was unloaded here on Denny Island. Given the secrecy of the project, the absence of public information, discussion or consultation, given the reckless and careless approach they have taken with even the most basic environmental concerns, I say the entire project should be scrapped. It just happens that I worked extensively in the seismic business as a teenager and am well familiar with the effects of terrestrial seismic blasting. A typical seismic shot conducted in Alberta would be about 1 kg of dynamite down a 30 metre hole. The resulting thump can be easily felt from 3 kms away, and material was frequently ejected from the holes aftershooting. I have no idea what could happen with a 1000 kg shot at 50 metres depth, but I have genuine fears of rocks raining down on my house. Dr. Hole himself even informs me that there is potential for a crater.
Tragically, there has been no time or opportunity to mobilize a less drastic opposition to the project. It is for all these reasons that I took action to destroy their hole.
For our Sandhill cranes, and this magnificent primaeval wilderness,
Sincerely,
Ingmar Lee
Box 60
Denny Island, BC
V0T-IB0
www.ingmarlee.com
I include the following email discussion I have had with Dr. Hole:
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:49:17 -0700
To: <bcenvirowatch@lists.onenw.org
Subject: [bcenvirowatch] Proponents of the massive GBR "Batholiths" seismic blast justify their project
Hi everyone,
Recently I posted notice of the massive seismic blast of approximately 1000 kgs of dynamite which is set to be detonated in the early morning hours of July 17 here on Denny Island, and at as many as 50 other locations between here and Quesnel. Here (following) is a correspondence chain I've been having with the chief proponent, Dr. John Hole of the University of Virginia. There hasn't been any public consultation, nobody here knew anything about it.
Frankly, I am disgusted and outraged about the blast, ~we've been observing 5 Sandhill crane nests over the years within 2 kms of the blast site. Most of our local crane sighting reports are of cranes seen around the airport. Our floathouse is anchored within a km of the blast site) Everybody around here that I've talked to around here (which is nearly everybody in the community) is equally disgusted. Locals are also very concerned about the effect of the blast on the fish, fry and eggs in nearby salmon systems. I have asked tham to at least cancel the Denny Island blast, but so far it looks like they will try to proceed.
Our Sandhill crane project, as should any research project, has complied with all the expected protocols for conducting research in FN territory, -we asked for, and received permission, we have made presentations to council, we have hired and paid for local FN field assistants and we have demonstrated that our project is beneficial to the community.
I am not satisifed that the Batholiths project has bothered with any of this. I am particularly disgusted that these people expected they could just sneak in here, secretly drill holes and conduct these blasts, especially here in the heart of the purportedly protected GBR, without having bothered to do the basic local due diligence.
The date is approaching very fast, but it would be great if people could mobilize our friends of the environment in Bella Coola, and all across the Chilcotin to stop this nonsense, because they have, no doubt, also been kept in the dark about this too.
Cheers, Ingmar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John Hole <hole@vt.edu>
Date: 2009/7/12
Subject: Re: Great Bear Rainforest Seismic Shot: Batholiths On Land Seismic Program mid-July, 2009
To: Ingmar <ingmarz@gmail.com>
Cc: John Hole <hole@vt.edu>, George Spence <gspence@uvic.ca>
Mr. Lee,
I understand your distrust of government. We are not "them". We are not the petroleum industry either. We are university scientists, who, for purely scientific reasons, submitted funding proposals to study mountain-building processes - to us this is a really cool part of nature. Our budgets are definitely not massive - to the point where our crew is mostly unpaid student volunteers. Our science will be student research projects, published in public online journals. Since the research is about the wrong type of rocks (granite), it will not be useful to petroleum companies.
Government employees working at the lowest local levels usually are not "them" either; these folks are more likely to be the whistle blowers. The government employee scientists who reviewed and approved the environmental-biological aspects of our proposal are based in Bella Coola (DFO and MinEnv) and Williams Lake (MinEnv). They seem pretty "green" to me - they sure asked a lot of questions and cancelled/shrunk a few of our proposed shots for good environmental reasons that only a local would know. We were happy to comply.
The marine Batholiths was not shut down due to the potential for marine damage. A permit was neither denied nor approved. We withdrew our application because the government permit process would take longer than the lifetime of our budgets.
When we withdrew our marine application in 2007, we informed all of the groups / organizations / agencies with whom we were in contact that we intended to propose a land project. We communicated about the marine and the land projects in the same manner, assuming the outreach would be equally effective - it worked for the marine. There was no attempt at secrecy.
It is unfortunate that the CCRD, Shearwater Resort, and Heiltsuk Nation did not inform your community about the land. We thought that they did. I can only guess that they were so unconcerned that they did not think they needed to.
Is there an alternate organization with whom we should be in contact?
Regarding monitoring, we are set up to quantitatively monitor ground shaking - that's our expertise. Sound in the water comes from the ground shaking (not from the air "whump" noise), so we can calculate water noise. We would be pleased to cooperate with anybody who wishes to monitor biological reactions, but all relevant agencies and local organizations have said there was no need. This is not meant as an excuse, but context matters: routine local operations regularly cause more wildlife disturbance than us. Would you like to set up a scientific monitoring?
Thank-you for your communications - and your honest emotions. Unfortunately many of your impressions of us and the project are poorly informed. It is very unfortunate that the local organizations did not communicate with you.
Sincerely,
John
ps. I am a Canadian citizen, but I live and teach in Virginia. If you think your government is bad...
On Jul 12, 2009, at 1:33 PM, Ingmar wrote:
> Hi Mr. Hole,
>
> It's hard not to be perturbed when such a seemingly massive project arrives suddenly unannounced at ones doorstep, and especially in the midst one of the most magnificent and untrammeled wilderness areas which remain on this beleagured planet. And very regretably, your assurances that your project won't have any environmental consequences at all, on account that it has passed muster with our federal and provincial authorities does utterly nothing to assuage our fears and concerns about it. In your part of the world, you may have just elected a progressive and visionary new government which has some credibility in its environmental efforts, but here in Canada, and in BC, we continue to endure the most regressive, environmentally illiterate Bush-style Neocon governments. It may be difficult for you to appreciate continual government-sanctioned development onslaught that would ravage this amazing area, but we face a steady stream of outright lies and "science-backed" deception on numerous local issues. Here in BC, the science is for sale that proves that black is white and is bought by the highest institutional bidder to justify their various projects. All people know around here about your "Batholiths" project, is that the last incarnation of it was shut down because it would have severely damaged our pristine marine environment. Now it's been resurrected again, and our community was entirely left out of the consultation loop. For these reasons, we are angry, we are not convinced that your project is completely environmentally benign and we have legitimate concerns that are not being addressed.
>
> We've been studying the Sandhill cranes which nest in this area over the past three years, and our surveys indicate that their habitat requirements are for utterly intact, silent, solitary wilderness. Our surveys are demonstrating this, -we have not found a single invasive species in any of our thousands of vegetation plots around their nests. Sandhill cranes are very easily disturbed, -even by kayak and on foot. Of course it is bad that the odd airplane comes in and out of the Denny Island aerodrome, but that, in my opinion does not justify a 1000 kg detonation. The CCRD, Shearwater Resort and Heiltsuk Nation did not inform our community about the blast and there has been no information or discussion about until it was recently, and with difficulty, discovered.
>
> Currently there are numerous schemes to conduct research to determine the scale of oil and gas reserves in this area. Our governments are working closely with huge American corporations in massive schemes to build giant pipelines and an associated super-tanker traffic to deliver Alberta Tar Sands oil and LNG to this wild coast. Nobody on this coast wants this planet-destroying development and we are actively fighting it.
>
> Aside from the immediate effects of your blast, for which apparently you have no monitoring component, there are concerns that your data may also be helpful to those oil and gas interests.
>
> For all these reasons, I would ask you politely, to at least delete the Denny Island hole from your plans.
>
> Sincerely, Ingmar Lee
>
> Ingmar Lee
> Box 60
> Denny Island, BC
> V0T-1B0
>
> www.ingmarlee.com
>
>
>
> 2009/7/11 John Hole <hole@vt.edu>
>
> Mr. Lee,
>
> <I'm back online after travelling the past two days..>
>
> I find it very difficult to answer your email given your tone. In addition, several of your assertions are just plain false.
> However, I will attempt to continue to communicate with you, as this has always been our honest goal.
>
> a) Apparently, the people we have talked to (CCRD, Shearwater Resort, and Heiltsuk Nation) have not, as we requested, helped us reach everyone in your community. For that I am very sorry.
>
> Do these organizations not well represent your community? Is there an alternate organization that we should talk to? We have asked, and are not aware of such.
>
> b) Seismic shot damage does not scale with size, as shot-hole design (burial under rock) takes size into account. I have personally been at thousands of seismic shots, from shotgun-size to 4000 kg. I stand literally on top of the shotgun-sized shots and 100-200 m away from the large shots, quite safely. I have shot 50 kg within 30 m of a house with no damage. Our consultant (former head of blasting safety for the province) said for a very similar 1000 kg shot "no reasonable likelihood of any building damage from shaking" at 1 km distance from houses.
>
> It is true that there is the potential for groundwater effects in certain types of groundwater geologic systems, and these effects are often regulated by law. However, such systems do not exist in the geology of your area.
>
> Livestock miscarriage?!? I guess this might occur with extremely poor safety practices. More likely a farmer submitting false damage claims. Such rhetoric is not constructive.
>
> c) The Batholiths program has never had any connection to the petroleum industry.
> In fact, oil can never be found in the types of rocks found under the islands and channels, the location of the project.
> Your statements about whales and seismic are inconsistent with science -- and irrelevant to the case at hand.
>
> A "batholith" is a large (km's) chunk of granitic rock that cooled from a liquid magma/lava deep beneath a volcano. The Coast Mountains are made of many batholiths formed tens of millions of years ago and later uplifted to the current mountains. Our project is called Batholiths because we are studying the processes that form batholiths in general and the Coast Mountains in particular. Pure research , university research, jointly funded by the national science foundations of Canada and the USA.
> In contrast, petroleum is found in sediment and sedimentary rock - consisting of sand, clay, lime and dead organisms (the future petroleum) deposited on the seafloor and later buried.
>
> d) Regarding our research that we will not harm fish and fish habitats, I refer you to the attached guidelines from the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans (pdf file attached below). The guidelines are based on science. We are following the most conservative guidelines within the document - no silt in the water. Our permit application has been independently assessed by site investigations, and approved by local experts at the DFO and the BC Ministry of the Environment to meet their highest standards. The permit process was very public under law.
>
> We have no reason to be secretive. Hence my attempt to respond despite the defamatory nature of your emails.
>
> I am sorry that our previous efforts did not reach you. I appreciate your attempts to contact us, but how can we communicate civilly and factually?
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 11, 2009, at 1:13 AM, Ingmar wrote:
>
>> Mr Hole, contrary to your assurances of extensive community consultation, not a single person of 80-odd residents here on Denny Island, other than the tug operator who delivered your drills has ever heard of your project. So much for your having "visited the area multiple times, distributing flyers and answering inquiries." My family and I live within a half mile of your Denny Island site and I am outraged that you would suggest that a massive detonation involving 375 kg of dynamite in the middle of the night would not be damaging in any way to our environment, or, without any forewarning would not shock us out of our beds? As I said in my previous email, I have worked seismic all over Alberta in the past and know that drilling and shooting even small charges like 2 1/2 lbs at 100 ft damages the water table and can cause livestock to miscarry. What we do know is that the last "Batholiths" seismic proposal that came through here in 2007 was initiated for offshore Oil and Gas development, -something for which there is unanimous opposition here, and which was shut down because we don't want our whales screaming onto the beach with bleeding eardrums. Seems that this latest incarnation of the Batholiths program anticipated widespread opposition to the project, hence all the secrecy. Please send me your research which demonstrates no harm whatsoever to wildlife, or to the salmon eggs in nearby streams. I'd also be very interested to know what monitoring program you've got in place to check for environmental damage after the fact.
>>
>> Thanks for responding
>>
>> Ingmar Lee
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> 2009/7/9 John Hole <hole@vt.edu>
>>
>> Mr. Lee,
>>
>> George Spence and I are currently on the road, so I apologize in advance for a limited response - we have very limited email over the next day or two.
>>
>> This project has been in the permitting and community outreach stages for almost two years. We have communicated personally and through FrontCounter BC with both the Heiltsuk Nation and the Central Coast Regional District, to our knowledge the organizations relevant to your community. Both groups expressed no concerns about our work. The permit has been issued by FrontCounter BC, in consultation with the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the BC Ministry of the Environment, the BC Min. of Forestry, and several other government agencies, and with First Nations and community organizations. We modified our plans to accommodate environmental and archeological concerns identified by these groups, and all of them expressed satisfaction with our current plan. The plan includes First Nation assistance.
>>
>> We have been the opposite of secretive. We have visited the area multiple times, distributing flyers and answering inquiries. We apologize if we missed some individuals.
>> We received an email from Ian McAllister on Wednesday, and I responded in detail to his inquiries about our plans.
>>
>> Our project is neither violent nor destructive. Seismic shots are designed to cause no damage to the landscape beyond that of drilling a hole similar to a water well. We are not "blasting", which is defined as breaking/damaging the earth. The shaking is noticeable for 1-2 km distance, and passes in a fraction of a second - it is much less intrusive than a lightning strike and smaller than many of the earthquakes that occur naturally in the region. The noise level is similar to a shotgun, airplane, or distant lightning, noises frequently heard in this area. Wildlife is not harmed in any way by such work, as evidenced by extensive work in multiple environments.
>> I apologize for being so blunt, but landing a plane at that airstrip, or flying low overhead, causes greater disturbance to the wildlife.
>>
>> We do not have a "blast route" on Denny Island: we have a single shot planned there, at a previously blasted and bulldozed site. The shot is scheduled to be fired in the very-early morning hours of July 17. It might be delayed a day, or two at most, if our other field logistics require.
>>
>> We would be happy to answer further inquiries, and would fully cooperate with any environmental monitoring that you might arrange.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> John Hole
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 9, 2009, at 10:49 PM, Ingmar wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Professors Hole and Spence,
>>>
>>> Recently two large drills were unloaded from a barge here in Shearwater BC, which then proceeded up to our local aerodrome where they drilled a large hole. I understand that you are amongst the chief proponents of what appears to be a giant seismic blast up here on Denny Island to be conducted at some secret time and date. As a resident here on Denny Island conducting research on our local Sandhill cranes, I am extremely concerned about your blast for numerous reasons, several of which I have outlined below.
>>>
>>> ~ there are at least 5 Sandhill crane nests within 2 kms of the blast site and the Denny Island aerodrome is frequented by cranes raising chicks, right at this moment. Our community feedback reports moreSandhill crane/chick sightings at the Denny Island aerodrome than at any other local location.
>>>
>>> ~ the 'Great Bear Rainforest' is purported to be a special wilderness region where violent, destructive projects are expected to be 'managed' according to "Eco-System Based Management" principles, which would include extensive community discussion
>>>
>>> ~ you appear to have ignored required university protocols for conducting research in FN territory. (Even our little crane project observes the UVic protocols, we asked for and received permissions from the Heiltsuk Nation, we demonstrated tangible benefits to the local community and we hire local FN field assistants and pay them a substantial salary.)
>>>
>>> ~ there hasn't been any whiff of community consultation about this, nobody knows about it, not even the Chair of our Chamber of Commerce, (our only local democratic body.) It has been far too difficult to find out what was going on at all.
>>>
>>> ~all along your proposed "Batholiths" blast route, wildlife are in the most sensitive stages of rearing their young. Sandhill cranes while raising chicks are particularly fragile and vulnerable to any intrusion.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine a worse possible timing or location for a project of this sort. I have worked on seismic projects in Alberta, and know that a 2 1/2 lb. stick of Geogel at 100 ft produces a distinct thump that can be felt several kms away. I understand that your blast will be much more enormous.
>>>
>>> I am particularly concerned and bothered by the outright lack of community discussion.
>>>
>>> What's with all the secrecy?? Is it your intention just to surprise us?
>>>
>>> Please send me details about your "Batholiths" project including exactly when the blast is scheduled to take place.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Ingmar Lee
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers, Ingmar
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> --
>> J. A. Hole, hole@vt.edu, 1-540-231-3858, Fax ...-3386
>> Dept. of Geosciences, Virginia Tech,
>> 4044 Derring Hall (MC 0420), Blacksburg VA, 24061
>> http://www.geos.vt.edu/people/hole/
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written by Dan Heuchert, July 15, 2009
It appears that Mr. Lee has his Virginia universities mixed up. Virginia Tech and the University of Virginia are two distinct institutions. Dr. John Hole is on the faculty at Virginia Tech, and not the University of Virginia.
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written by Mary McNaughton, July 15, 2009
As a resident and homeowner of Denny Island, I can not condone Ingmar Lee's behaviour. While he claims to have acted alone, he also cites an excuse for his behaviour based on his perception that no one on Denny Island knew what the scientists were doing. He should not use any reference to Denny Island residents as a reason for his misguided actions. I wrote Ingmar and let him know that I detest any sort of violence/destruction in the least and feel fighting destruction with destruction is wrong.
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written by Bob, July 15, 2009
Kudos, Mr. Lee. That'll tech those pesky scientists to mess with you! However, I can't help wondering what is going to happen to the chemicals in the explosive material now that you may have made it impossible to get rid of it. After an explosion basically charcoal would be left behind, but now that you may have prevented that I guess we'll just have to let it leach into the ground water. I don't suppose the cranes will mind it much when future generations of their offspring start being born with a third wing or something like that thanks to your actions. Then again, since you've taken it upon yourself to get the likes of the press involved the federal government may not have any choice but to get more involved (they were already involved in the approval process in the first place) and study the hydrological implications for a while and then turn the whole area into a mini-open pit mine as they go digging to recover the explosives. That surely won't be disruptive to the cranes or the wilderness area...and all for the want of stopping something that would bother the cranes less in noise and movement that that of a nearby lightning strike. Good going. If you need some Sandhill cranes I can send you some. About 50,000 of them nest the during the winter about 20 miles from my house in New Mexico in a swamp area that is about 15 miles from where the first atomic bomb was detonated. It hasn't seemed to hurt them any.
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written by rogue06, July 28, 2009
Yeah, those oil companies commonly drill through mountains in search of oil. With luck you'll soon be facing criminal prosecution for your stupidity.
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written by Quatguy, July 28, 2009
It sounds like you made a rash, stupid decision. The MoE and DFO were informed and gave their consent for the blasting and local authorities were notified. They are doing pure science for research purposes and it was determined that there would be no impacts on the local environment. The oil industry is not involved. I hope you are arrested and charged and made to pay compensation.
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written by bean, July 28, 2009
What an absurd and ignorant step to take. This is a disgusting act that will win no applause.
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written by KenS, July 28, 2009
You dismantled a harmless scientific device and didn't properly remove the explosives? What did you do with several hundred kilograms of high explosives? Did you leave it in place to sweat and become unstable and eventually explode anyway? Are you trained in the safe handling of explosives? Or are you some kind of idiot?
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written by NoAstronomer, July 28, 2009
Ingmar,
Dr PZ Myers has asked that we visit your site and provide a comment on your activities that is civil an informative. Here is my comment...
You are a twit.
Michael R. Watts.
[thanks for that, Michael. Dr. Myers is incorrect in assuming www.pacificfreepress.com is Ingmar Lee's site. He may well be incorrect about other things too, nez pas?]
Dr PZ Myers has asked that we visit your site and provide a comment on your activities that is civil an informative. Here is my comment...
You are a twit.
Michael R. Watts.
[thanks for that, Michael. Dr. Myers is incorrect in assuming www.pacificfreepress.com is Ingmar Lee's site. He may well be incorrect about other things too, nez pas?]
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written by Kate, July 28, 2009
Your plan was neither as clever, nor as helpful as you seem to think it was.
You made many fatal errors in your reasoning, all of which indicate you do not have the requisite knowledge to take this kind of action without supervision.
Most people are aware that oil does not exist under mountain ranges. Only the fumblingly ignorant commit an act without first examining all the evidence and fully examining te consequences of their planned actions.
You are not a champion, sir. You are, instead, ignorant and misinformed.
You made many fatal errors in your reasoning, all of which indicate you do not have the requisite knowledge to take this kind of action without supervision.
Most people are aware that oil does not exist under mountain ranges. Only the fumblingly ignorant commit an act without first examining all the evidence and fully examining te consequences of their planned actions.
You are not a champion, sir. You are, instead, ignorant and misinformed.
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written by garth, July 28, 2009
Misplaced, misinformed vandalism. For all the high-flying rhetoric, you still vandalized a harmless experiment.
This is nothing but bragging about ignorance. You should be ashamed of yourself, Mr. Lee.
This is nothing but bragging about ignorance. You should be ashamed of yourself, Mr. Lee.
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written by gingerbeard, July 28, 2009
well now that you have thoughtfully provided a full confession, I do hope the local police (RCMP) will be investigating and charging you for your actions.
You do state you look forward to this, I would also think it appropriate for you to spend the money to travel to Virginia, and have a meeting with the students and faculty explaining why your actions were so important and how it was responsible to disrupt their research.
Also , maybe you would consider reimbursing the university research team the cost of your actions, so that they can continue their research now that you have personally been informed of the actions.
But somehow I doubt you are that responsible.
You do state you look forward to this, I would also think it appropriate for you to spend the money to travel to Virginia, and have a meeting with the students and faculty explaining why your actions were so important and how it was responsible to disrupt their research.
Also , maybe you would consider reimbursing the university research team the cost of your actions, so that they can continue their research now that you have personally been informed of the actions.
But somehow I doubt you are that responsible.
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written by Adam, July 28, 2009
I, too, look forward to the consequences of your action.
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written by John, July 28, 2009
It is so disappointing to see that the Luddite mentality is alive and well. It is ironic that Mr Lee pours scorn on the ant-science slant of the bush administration while boasting about disrupting scientific work himself.
Mr Lee, liberals and environmentalists are not going to applaud what you did here. It was thuggish, juvenile, and selfish, and served no purpose other than to give you joy at destroying someone else's work.
You should be ashamed, but, of course, your type were never taught right from wrong, so won't be. I blame your parents, and hope that they may still manage to instil on you a sense of civic pride and responsibility.
Mr Lee, liberals and environmentalists are not going to applaud what you did here. It was thuggish, juvenile, and selfish, and served no purpose other than to give you joy at destroying someone else's work.
You should be ashamed, but, of course, your type were never taught right from wrong, so won't be. I blame your parents, and hope that they may still manage to instil on you a sense of civic pride and responsibility.
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written by wheatdogg, July 28, 2009
Mr. Lee,
I appreciate your concerns about the cranes, which are magnificent creatures, but trespassing and vandalism are criminal acts. After reviewing the correspondence here between you and Mr Hole, it seems he was politely addressing your concerns, but you were not listening very carefully. In addition, from my perspective as a layman, your experience as a teenager in seismic explosions does not confer the title of "expert" on you. Rather, it seems Messrs Hole and Spence, and the provincial and local authorities who gave them permission to conduct the seismic shot, were more expert than you in such matters.
As I read this, the plan was to fire only one seismic shot for the purpose of batholith research. An explosion might have scared the local wildlife, including the cranes, but it was only one explosion. Wild creatures are more resilient than you expect. Once the commotion was over, the wildlife would probably go back to their business as usual. As Mr Hole notes, the noise from the local airport probably disturbs the local fauna more, since the noise is of longer duration and more repetitive than a single explosion. Again, I suggest local wildlife just adapt to the noise. I used to live near the artillery practice zone of Fort Knox, Kentucky. The above ground explosion and impacts never seemed to bother local livestock or wildlife, or we humans, for that matter. In fact, I found the train horns blowing at the nearby crossings more of a disturbance.
I am sure you consider yourself a kind of hero, but you were basically a vigilante. You had neither the right nor the expertise to take matters in your own hands. To me, it seems you had preconceived notions about the seismic shot that no explanations from the responsible parties could possibly dispel. Instead of being proud, you should be ashamed.
I appreciate your concerns about the cranes, which are magnificent creatures, but trespassing and vandalism are criminal acts. After reviewing the correspondence here between you and Mr Hole, it seems he was politely addressing your concerns, but you were not listening very carefully. In addition, from my perspective as a layman, your experience as a teenager in seismic explosions does not confer the title of "expert" on you. Rather, it seems Messrs Hole and Spence, and the provincial and local authorities who gave them permission to conduct the seismic shot, were more expert than you in such matters.
As I read this, the plan was to fire only one seismic shot for the purpose of batholith research. An explosion might have scared the local wildlife, including the cranes, but it was only one explosion. Wild creatures are more resilient than you expect. Once the commotion was over, the wildlife would probably go back to their business as usual. As Mr Hole notes, the noise from the local airport probably disturbs the local fauna more, since the noise is of longer duration and more repetitive than a single explosion. Again, I suggest local wildlife just adapt to the noise. I used to live near the artillery practice zone of Fort Knox, Kentucky. The above ground explosion and impacts never seemed to bother local livestock or wildlife, or we humans, for that matter. In fact, I found the train horns blowing at the nearby crossings more of a disturbance.
I am sure you consider yourself a kind of hero, but you were basically a vigilante. You had neither the right nor the expertise to take matters in your own hands. To me, it seems you had preconceived notions about the seismic shot that no explanations from the responsible parties could possibly dispel. Instead of being proud, you should be ashamed.
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Votes: +25
written by Bosch's Poodle, July 28, 2009
Your actions sound like they were probably illegal and were certainly unjustified. You sound eager to play out a Monkeywrench Gang fantasy but the target of your fury is so harmless it's almost comical. This is not how adults behave in a democracy of laws. I hope and expect you'll be subject to civil action.
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Votes: +19
written by Mik, July 28, 2009
Good job...instead of learning more about how our earth formed, we're now going to learn about the effects of nitroglycerin and other explosive chemicals on resident wildlife populations. Next time before you decide to release all your unbridled ignorance on the rest of the world you might actually want to use your brain first. You, much like global warming deniers and flat earthers, have decided that you are far more knowledgeable and intelligent than those who study and work in science. You have shown the same disdain for knowledge that conservatives are known for, as well as the same penchant for violence. Apparently you don't realize that most scientists work with shoestring budgets and can't recover from incidents of terrorism, making all researchers reluctant to work in the area, even the fuzzy animal kind. I'm sure all scientists will avoid your (red)neck of the woods from now on and leave your poor animals alone. Of course, with no scientific studies done, in a few years when your friends the conservatives want to come along and do some mining, there will be no studies to stop them.
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Votes: +21
written by Wade, July 28, 2009
Are you seeking publicity or something? The scientists are communicating with you quite openly, explaining their motives, methods, and adherence to safety and environmental regulations. There is no threat to the wildlife in the area. Your actions are at best foolish and expensive and at worst illegal and damaging. You should quit while you're ahead.
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Votes: +19
written by James, July 28, 2009
Based on Professor Hole's correspondence, it sounds like you really have no idea what you're talking about. You sound like you're a bit paranoid, and the type of "environmentalist" who gives real nature advocates a bad name. Good job ruining what sounds like an interesting and useful science experiment, one which was being carried out by conscientious and caring scientists who took all the necessary steps to ensure that no harm would come to your community.
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Votes: +17
written by Matt D, July 28, 2009
Hey Ingmar, how much do the neo-cons pay to sabotage the reputation of environmentalists and animal rights activists by promoting your brand of scientific benightedness?
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Votes: +9
written by Christopher Petroni, July 28, 2009
Seems to me that the lead scientist made it very clear what he was doing, to the government and the people in the community. He went through all the proper channels, and everyone involved decided that the risk to the cranes was negligible. Everyone but Mr. Lee. What are his credentials, I wonder?
So because of Mr. Lee's ill-informed vigilantism, a university research team on a shoe-string budget loses its research. Well done. There's nothing more dangerous than poor university students.
So because of Mr. Lee's ill-informed vigilantism, a university research team on a shoe-string budget loses its research. Well done. There's nothing more dangerous than poor university students.
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Votes: +13
written by Keippernicus, July 28, 2009
So you've basically confessed to destruction of property on the internet for taking actions deemed to be non-harmful to the local wildlife by the local authorities?
Yeah good luck with that.
Yeah good luck with that.
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Votes: +11
written by Dax, July 28, 2009
Destroying someone else's property because you, complete scientifically illiterate, don't like the research based on inane arguments, you really taught the scientific community a lesson. The lesson is that eco-hooligans like you don't give a rats ass about the pursuit of knowledge. These scientists go through extreme lengths, like John Hole did, to protect the environment and the well-being of every living thing involved while doing research, but your ideological blinders are blocking your rational thought processes.
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written by Miguel Espinosa, July 28, 2009
I can't believe you would do something this abhorrent and childish, Mr. Lee.
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written by DS, July 28, 2009
Congrats Mr. Lee. I've never seen anyone ignore and dance around direct questions to concerns brought up before. Did you even bother to read anything that Mr. Hole wrote to you? Understanding our planet is the best way to find how to protect it. By destroying equipment that would help us to understand the planet, you sir, have found a unique way of damaging it in the long run.
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written by Beadknitter, July 28, 2009
I hope you are arrested and fined for what you did. Get your facts straight instead of running off in an ignorant rush of emotion and vandalizing others property, plus endangering the environment.
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written by Brian X, July 28, 2009
You and your fellow monkeywrenchers have consistently shown yourselves to be ignorant thugs who willfully ignore science and logic in favor of snap judgements and economic terrorism. You're an embarrassment to the environmentalism movement and I hope your admission brings considerable legal trouble for you.
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written by Joey, July 28, 2009
What a waste of time, you have accomplished nothing here, but to make it harder for those who care about the environment to get their message across and actually increase the protection of the environment. You have harmed it, and the movement as a whole.
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written by martin, July 28, 2009
This is probably the most stupid reasoning I've seen in a long time from Mr Lee. Its a shame he didn't get blown up in the process, at then some good would have come from all this.
[nice. ed.]
[nice. ed.]
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Votes: +3
written by Kinzua Kid, July 28, 2009
This exchange reminds me of a religious discussion. On the one hand are broad assertions of widespread damage potential from this study and on the other are well documented trails of research and communication, easily verified, yet completely ignored because there must be a conspiracy and everybody is lying.
It is apparently lost on the OP that this kind of basic science is becoming rapidly extinct itself. The tiny budgets and byzantine rules these folks operate under consume thousands of hours for preparation and execution. Those efforts are now lost with the additional knowledge to be gained about past and future local geologic formations. Basic science education seems to be a contributing factor here. For instance: If one is to complain oil companies are behind some scheme, it might make sense to consider whether that would be a reasonable assertion, given the area under study can contain no oil.
This kind of behavior will have a chilling effect on all research in the area, whether geologic, biological or environmental. If all it takes to justify scuttling thousands of hours of research is a poorly constructed set of conspiracy claims, why bother concerning ourselves with science at all? That goes for the fish and cranes as well as local wetlands, coastal erosion and air quality. Clearly, none of that is important to the OP. The community specifically and the public generally all suffer for these actions.
It is apparently lost on the OP that this kind of basic science is becoming rapidly extinct itself. The tiny budgets and byzantine rules these folks operate under consume thousands of hours for preparation and execution. Those efforts are now lost with the additional knowledge to be gained about past and future local geologic formations. Basic science education seems to be a contributing factor here. For instance: If one is to complain oil companies are behind some scheme, it might make sense to consider whether that would be a reasonable assertion, given the area under study can contain no oil.
This kind of behavior will have a chilling effect on all research in the area, whether geologic, biological or environmental. If all it takes to justify scuttling thousands of hours of research is a poorly constructed set of conspiracy claims, why bother concerning ourselves with science at all? That goes for the fish and cranes as well as local wetlands, coastal erosion and air quality. Clearly, none of that is important to the OP. The community specifically and the public generally all suffer for these actions.
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Votes: +11
written by anaxagoras, July 28, 2009
Mr. Lee,
The activities of scientists (I am one) should be monitored and regulated. However, oversight of research programs cannot be productive unless those who are monitoring them are adequately educated in the science they are examining--both in the relevant background information and the intentions/purposes/expected outcomes of the research programs being monitored. While you may be committed to protecting the environment, your efforts are misguided for lack of such education. I suggest you address this deficit before you try to intervene in the future. Also, concern for the environment does not justify willful destruction of property, which surely must be illegal in your country. I hope the authorities take appropriate action against you. I suggest you find other, legal ways to get involved in the scientific community in the future.
The activities of scientists (I am one) should be monitored and regulated. However, oversight of research programs cannot be productive unless those who are monitoring them are adequately educated in the science they are examining--both in the relevant background information and the intentions/purposes/expected outcomes of the research programs being monitored. While you may be committed to protecting the environment, your efforts are misguided for lack of such education. I suggest you address this deficit before you try to intervene in the future. Also, concern for the environment does not justify willful destruction of property, which surely must be illegal in your country. I hope the authorities take appropriate action against you. I suggest you find other, legal ways to get involved in the scientific community in the future.
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written by You are an idiot, July 28, 2009
This is a totally misguided attempt at protecting nature. It looks to me like these experiments where about as disruptive as fireworks. Get a grip, you idiot. There are hundreds of oil companies that are completely destroying huge tracts of land, if you need an enemey look at those who destroy the environment for personal monetary gain, not at the scientists who are doing this to simply learn more about our amazing world.
You should not be applauded, you should be shamed.
You should not be applauded, you should be shamed.
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written by Azkyroth, July 28, 2009
This was an amazingly foolish and pointless action. Quite aside from the absurd sense of entitlement involved in this kind of vandalism, I have taken exactly one introductory geology class and even I know that one does not look for oil in granite batholiths. Even assuming that sabotaging oil exploration would be justified, I think it's incumbent on you to have at least a bright high school student's level of understanding of what's going on before acting. As it is, this act of vandalism places you on the same level as the perpetrators of the semi-mythicized incident in Britain where a mob of citizens got the terms "pedophile" and "pediatrician" mixed up and attacked one of the latter. Congratulations.
While you apparently don't have much use for knowledge and learning, given your failure to educate yourself on this issue, you have seriously undermined important scientific research aimed at increasing our understanding of the geologic processes and history of the planet (and possibly giving us important information that might be relevant to, for instance, predicting and mitigating earthquakes and volcanic eruptions), and imposed a substantial cost on an educational budget that was already hanging by a thread. More important, however, is the damage you've done to the environmental movement. After this irrational, ignorant, and criminal attack, you've made the job of Big Oil and other companies who consider environmental protection to be an irrevelant pain in the neck much easier. They can cut their advertising budgets and spend them on more ACTUAL oil exploration, since now they have little need to float elaborate lies and mistruths about the environmental impact of their projects and the motivations and justification of their opponents. Instead, all they have to do is point to your crime, tell one simple lie - "This is a typical environmentalist" - and the movement's credibility is damaged irreparably.
With friends like you, the earth has no need of enemies. With enemies like you, Big Oil has no need of friends. So, congratulations. I hope whatever momentary satisfaction you got from this action was worth it.
While you apparently don't have much use for knowledge and learning, given your failure to educate yourself on this issue, you have seriously undermined important scientific research aimed at increasing our understanding of the geologic processes and history of the planet (and possibly giving us important information that might be relevant to, for instance, predicting and mitigating earthquakes and volcanic eruptions), and imposed a substantial cost on an educational budget that was already hanging by a thread. More important, however, is the damage you've done to the environmental movement. After this irrational, ignorant, and criminal attack, you've made the job of Big Oil and other companies who consider environmental protection to be an irrevelant pain in the neck much easier. They can cut their advertising budgets and spend them on more ACTUAL oil exploration, since now they have little need to float elaborate lies and mistruths about the environmental impact of their projects and the motivations and justification of their opponents. Instead, all they have to do is point to your crime, tell one simple lie - "This is a typical environmentalist" - and the movement's credibility is damaged irreparably.
With friends like you, the earth has no need of enemies. With enemies like you, Big Oil has no need of friends. So, congratulations. I hope whatever momentary satisfaction you got from this action was worth it.
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Votes: +5
written by matthewhardy@congregationofrealists.org, July 28, 2009
Commending Dr Hole on his communication
Thank you Dr Hole for a well written and informative exposition of what your research would have achieved and the lengths you went to ensuring that it would have no adverse impact. It's a shame that no matter how well you communicate there will be some people incapable of listening or understanding that they might be wrong. It's a shame that you ran up against somebody who perhaps due to the Dunning Kruger effect thinks he knows better than you what would have happened had you been allowed to carry out pure scientific research.
Kudos for keeping your cool. I hope Mr Lee is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Thank you Dr Hole for a well written and informative exposition of what your research would have achieved and the lengths you went to ensuring that it would have no adverse impact. It's a shame that no matter how well you communicate there will be some people incapable of listening or understanding that they might be wrong. It's a shame that you ran up against somebody who perhaps due to the Dunning Kruger effect thinks he knows better than you what would have happened had you been allowed to carry out pure scientific research.
Kudos for keeping your cool. I hope Mr Lee is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
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Votes: +15
written by George Krasle, July 28, 2009
Interesting. It sounds like you, Mr. Lee, have been talking to some of the nuttier conspiracy theorists out there. Unfortunately, a heavily catastrophized fantasy about what some project is intended to accomplish, and what the effects will be, is never, ever, accurate. I suggest you educate yourself from sources that are a bit more reputable, reliable and accurate. If you really don't have an understanding of Geology, I suggest the books "Roadside Geology of Washington" and "Northwest Exposures: A Geologic Story of the Northwest." You should also familiarize yourself with the pertinent aspects of marine biology, especially recent research on the effects of sound on sea life.
This all reminds me of the event some years ago when another radical group, afraid that there might be dreaded "Genetic Engineering" going on at the University of Washington Center for Urban Horticulture, destroyed the research project on hybrid poplars that are used for street trees, contamination remediation and sustainable fiber (paper) production, and also obliterated the research on the environmental recovery of the Mount St. Helens blast area, and, worst of all, burned the Horticulture library.
Random irrational acts of thuggery and destruction do not ever help the image or credibility of people productively working for environmental, social or political good, nor are they worthy of any accolade. The riots in the Muslim world over the publication of some cartoons in Belgium certainly don't do anything good for the image of that religion, and willy-nilly vandalizing whatever "science" you encounter would best be kept QUIET, not attributed to any part of an environmental cause or movement, because it obviously does more harm than good. Making up some excuse to try to sound like you were acting on some Big Cause doesn't wash when you are apparently not very familiar with the topic at hand; it just looks like random vandalism borrowing from (and reducing) "The Cause's" credibility with an inept rationalization, a matter that would best be left to the police and not discussed in the same breath as any real Cause. In fact, you might just as well be in the employ of the "other side" for all the (welcome, I'm sure) help you've given them.
This all reminds me of the event some years ago when another radical group, afraid that there might be dreaded "Genetic Engineering" going on at the University of Washington Center for Urban Horticulture, destroyed the research project on hybrid poplars that are used for street trees, contamination remediation and sustainable fiber (paper) production, and also obliterated the research on the environmental recovery of the Mount St. Helens blast area, and, worst of all, burned the Horticulture library.
Random irrational acts of thuggery and destruction do not ever help the image or credibility of people productively working for environmental, social or political good, nor are they worthy of any accolade. The riots in the Muslim world over the publication of some cartoons in Belgium certainly don't do anything good for the image of that religion, and willy-nilly vandalizing whatever "science" you encounter would best be kept QUIET, not attributed to any part of an environmental cause or movement, because it obviously does more harm than good. Making up some excuse to try to sound like you were acting on some Big Cause doesn't wash when you are apparently not very familiar with the topic at hand; it just looks like random vandalism borrowing from (and reducing) "The Cause's" credibility with an inept rationalization, a matter that would best be left to the police and not discussed in the same breath as any real Cause. In fact, you might just as well be in the employ of the "other side" for all the (welcome, I'm sure) help you've given them.
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Votes: +9
written by Dan, July 28, 2009
I'm sorry to see you've caused harm to a legitimate and appropriate scientific study. The study of nature generates the knowledge civilization needs to protect the environment and progress as a society. While good scientists take the time to do the appropriate research that benefits everyone in an environmentally responsible way you've acted hastily and without proper context, information, and perspective. I hope John Hole's letter and other relevant information get you to reassess your actions and goals. Do the right thing and take the proper steps to make up for the damage you've caused.
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Votes: +6
written by Erin, July 28, 2009
I find it incredibly disheartening that destruction of property is apparently worthy of bragging rights, especially when your opposition to this project seems to have been built largely on strawman claims.
I would strongly urge anyone who thinks this was a good deed to soberly reconsider the situation and try to make a measured assessment.
I would strongly urge anyone who thinks this was a good deed to soberly reconsider the situation and try to make a measured assessment.
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Votes: +5
written by Evolving Squid, July 28, 2009
Your complete disrespect for other people's property is equalled only by your complete ignorance of how geological research is carried out. I do hope that you are held accoutable for your actions with a prosecution on the charge of mischief. Since you've openly admitted to the act, and are proud of it, why not try turning yourself in and salvage at least a shred of moral high ground and dignity from this patently stupid act.
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Votes: +5
written by Bjoern Brembs, July 28, 2009
Dear Ingmar Lee,
your story reminds me of this study:
http://www.apa.org/journals/fe...761121.pdf
Maybe you should spend less time crawling around in other people's experiments and more time reading up on what it is they're actually doing, to avoid becoming the laughing stock of everybody who happens to come across this page?
your story reminds me of this study:
http://www.apa.org/journals/fe...761121.pdf
Maybe you should spend less time crawling around in other people's experiments and more time reading up on what it is they're actually doing, to avoid becoming the laughing stock of everybody who happens to come across this page?
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Votes: +6
written by BLAH, July 28, 2009
Wow. The arrogance of your ignorance is astounding. You feel you have the right to destroy benign and basic scientific research equipment with absolutely no legitimate standing on facts. Educate yourself on the issues rather than your simple I don't believe you responses to what seems like a very civil and truthful communication from the professor
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Votes: +7
written by Eric Houg, July 28, 2009
You're an idiot. No, I take that back, you're a self important idiot. And this coming from a guy who believes himself to be an Arch Duke.
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Votes: +3
written by Doug Sharp, July 28, 2009
Congrats on your brilliant victory over the evil forces of science.
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Votes: +9
written by mike the scientist, July 28, 2009
Mr. Lee, You should be ashamed. You type of ill informed, destructive and reckless environmentalism is a disgrace to all those who truly seek to understand and preserve the environment. Instead of protecting the environment, you have put up a road block to understanding it better. I hope the environment pays you back appropriately, with a flock of gulls crapping on your head, or perhaps an unfortunate encounter with a skunk right before a big date.
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Votes: +4
written by M., July 28, 2009
Congratulations! Assistance of people like yourself is invaluable to the oil companies - the next time they wish to dismiss environmental complaints, all they need to do is point to your work as an example that environmentalists are ignorant and destructive. A friendly, truthful and direct response from the investigator of the project didn't dissuade you, nor did it change any of your (utterly incorrect) presumption. This kind of willful ignorance has been the bane of environmentalist (and animal rights) movements for decades. After crying wolf and being destructive for absolutely inane reasons, do you expect to be listened to if you have a real complaint in the future?
Also, thank you for setting back basic science. Who are those damn geologists anyway, to try to change your mind with facts, or to try and discover something about the world? You'll show them!
Also, thank you for setting back basic science. Who are those damn geologists anyway, to try to change your mind with facts, or to try and discover something about the world? You'll show them!
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Votes: +9
written by Dan, July 28, 2009
I hope this will be thoroughly prosecuted, if any laws have been broken. The researcher at least seems to have had his homework done. About the idiot, I don't know...
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Votes: +3
written by Alicia, July 28, 2009
I can only hope that the proper authorities are called for this blatant destruction of property. It's nice to know that there are people all over the world that are ignorant in the ways of scientific research enough to actually destroy a team's experiment through an illegal act and then have the audacity to be proud of themselves for doing it. Bravo, sir.
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Votes: +4
written by mmr, July 28, 2009
Mr. Lee, I think it's sad that you took this action. I'm not completely opposed to extreme measures ("monkey-wrenching') in certain very extreme, urgent cases. But in this case, you were way off-base. First, you claim to have taken action for the benefit of the surrounding community who you claim were not adequately informed about the project. Yet, your reaction was not to attempt to inform and organize the community, but to commit a lone act of vandalism. Such acts are far less likely to gain support for any cause. Second, and more importantly, this is simply a misguided cause. Mr. Hole is correct that such a seismic station is *extremely* unlikely to have any affect on surrounding wildlife whatsoever, and you do not offer any counter-evidence that it would. Such a seismic blast would not take place at the surface and would feel about the same as thunder. Moreover, the geological setting is wrong for this to have any future implications for oil and gas drilling. Finally, your tone in contacting Mr. Hole seems to indicate a lack of good faith on your part. My honest advice to you for the future would be that if you want others to listen to your concerns, you should be prepared to confront them civilly and with all your evidence in hand. From the emails I see here, you attack Mr. Hole outright from the start and do not listen or respond to his reasonable explanation of the project and its very minimal environmental impact.
For the record, I'm a grad student in environmental history and the history of science and I have a BA in geology. I also consider myself to be an environmentalist. There are too many real environmental problems out there to risk your rapport with the public and with scientists in this way. Your actions are more likely to hurt than help efforts to protect wilderness. Sadly, you also destroyed scientific instruments that help us all to understand and appreciate the nature world more deeply. I hope you learn to pick your battles better in the future.
For the record, I'm a grad student in environmental history and the history of science and I have a BA in geology. I also consider myself to be an environmentalist. There are too many real environmental problems out there to risk your rapport with the public and with scientists in this way. Your actions are more likely to hurt than help efforts to protect wilderness. Sadly, you also destroyed scientific instruments that help us all to understand and appreciate the nature world more deeply. I hope you learn to pick your battles better in the future.
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Votes: +7
written by Aidan, July 28, 2009
You wrote to the scientist involved. He answered you reasonably answering every one of your complaints. You went ahead and destroyed the experiment. What does that say about you?
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Votes: +12
written by Jim Ozark, July 28, 2009
Ingmar Lee, do you have experience with prison life? If not, you may be confident that your righteousness will carry you to a more protected environment (eventually). The thick concrete walls are very effective protection from blast debris. For your safety, I hope that the authorities provide this service to you as soon as possible. Although you will be safe, you will have difficulty paying for the damage from your prison job's wage of 5 cents per hour. It's a small price to pay for showing them who's boss.
And keep ignoring facts - they are a trick that the productive people in society use to mislead sociopaths and megalomaniacs from the imminent threat of loss of control. Surveys of mineral resources, geological structures, et al. are flimsy excuses for Big Money and Big Government to upset Ingmar Lee. They spend hours and hours figuring ways to get into your corner of the world and mess with it. They even create a fake records (brilliant!) of public notification, paid operatives as 'volunteers', and hundreds of prior 'safe blasts'.
And keep ignoring facts - they are a trick that the productive people in society use to mislead sociopaths and megalomaniacs from the imminent threat of loss of control. Surveys of mineral resources, geological structures, et al. are flimsy excuses for Big Money and Big Government to upset Ingmar Lee. They spend hours and hours figuring ways to get into your corner of the world and mess with it. They even create a fake records (brilliant!) of public notification, paid operatives as 'volunteers', and hundreds of prior 'safe blasts'.
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Votes: +9
written by Michael, July 28, 2009
Ingmar,
Do you consider yourself an open minded person? Would any proof at this point convince you that the research you disrupted was legitimate and harmless? Is there any possible way you would have experienced the same satisfaction by reaching a civil agreement with those scientists that you did by destroying something? Or did you just need to break something to feel good? Do you consider yourself a 'hero' or a 'defender of the environment'? What will you do if someone decides your house is damaging to the environment and decides to remove it without consulting you? I hope that never happens of course, just like I wish people like you would be more honest about your motives: I think you can't find a way to constructively vent your frustrations about feeling powerless against 'them' and so you need to destroy things to empower yourself. But your actions are destructive and pointless, a true waste of noble effort and scant resources. You are undoing the good work of others and you seem totally unwilling to listen to evidence, reason, or logic. This is precisely what most of us were so angry at the Bush administration for, and you have emulated their mentality perfectly. Except instead of blind greed, you are just pursuing a blind (and false) ideology of your own. Here's proof: not a word of this message is likely to get through to you.
Good luck in spite of it all, I am sure you are a good person with a good heart. Maybe you will consider your actions and see that this is not the best way to go.
Cheers,
Mike
Do you consider yourself an open minded person? Would any proof at this point convince you that the research you disrupted was legitimate and harmless? Is there any possible way you would have experienced the same satisfaction by reaching a civil agreement with those scientists that you did by destroying something? Or did you just need to break something to feel good? Do you consider yourself a 'hero' or a 'defender of the environment'? What will you do if someone decides your house is damaging to the environment and decides to remove it without consulting you? I hope that never happens of course, just like I wish people like you would be more honest about your motives: I think you can't find a way to constructively vent your frustrations about feeling powerless against 'them' and so you need to destroy things to empower yourself. But your actions are destructive and pointless, a true waste of noble effort and scant resources. You are undoing the good work of others and you seem totally unwilling to listen to evidence, reason, or logic. This is precisely what most of us were so angry at the Bush administration for, and you have emulated their mentality perfectly. Except instead of blind greed, you are just pursuing a blind (and false) ideology of your own. Here's proof: not a word of this message is likely to get through to you.
Good luck in spite of it all, I am sure you are a good person with a good heart. Maybe you will consider your actions and see that this is not the best way to go.
Cheers,
Mike
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written by The Chemist, July 28, 2009
Certainly, absolute quiet seems necessary for an animal to survive. This is why thunderstorms which are responsible for the endangerment of so many bird species. Oh wait, that's simply not true.
It seems to me Doctors Hole and Spence have very little reason to be secretive. You throw a lot of accusations of secrecy at them, but can't suggest a plausible motive for their alleged secrecy (and I emphasize plausible). By and large, it's entirely possible for a number of people not to know or care about blasting by some obscure scientific group, even in a small community. Your reasoning has been at best, surreal and under-informed. Concerns about careless seismic testing around cetaceans and marine life are valid, but as Hole and Spence have iterated, this is simply not going to happen. Meanwhile, there is little evidence that ground nesting species of birds are affected by and large in any way by more permanent HC-exploration seismic lines!(See citations from experiments done by UA and Canadian Wildlife Services below) Never mind the small one-time experiment that Hole and Spence were intending before you so recklessly cut it short. They feel an obligation to be congenial and expressly polite. Not being involved with the project, I can say that you acted impulsively and without due diligence.
CITES:
Ashenhurst A, Hannon S. Effects of Seismic Lines on the Abundance of Breeding Birds in the Kendall Island Bird Sanctuary, Northwest Territories, Canada. Arctic [serial on the Internet]. (2008, June), [cited July 28, 2009]; 61(2): 190-198. Available from: Environment Complete.
Machtans C. Songbird response to seismic lines in the western boreal forest: a manipulative experiment. Canadian Journal of Zoology [serial on the Internet]. (2006, Oct), [cited July 28, 2009]; 84(10): 1421-1430. Available from: Environment Complete.
It seems to me Doctors Hole and Spence have very little reason to be secretive. You throw a lot of accusations of secrecy at them, but can't suggest a plausible motive for their alleged secrecy (and I emphasize plausible). By and large, it's entirely possible for a number of people not to know or care about blasting by some obscure scientific group, even in a small community. Your reasoning has been at best, surreal and under-informed. Concerns about careless seismic testing around cetaceans and marine life are valid, but as Hole and Spence have iterated, this is simply not going to happen. Meanwhile, there is little evidence that ground nesting species of birds are affected by and large in any way by more permanent HC-exploration seismic lines!(See citations from experiments done by UA and Canadian Wildlife Services below) Never mind the small one-time experiment that Hole and Spence were intending before you so recklessly cut it short. They feel an obligation to be congenial and expressly polite. Not being involved with the project, I can say that you acted impulsively and without due diligence.
CITES:
Ashenhurst A, Hannon S. Effects of Seismic Lines on the Abundance of Breeding Birds in the Kendall Island Bird Sanctuary, Northwest Territories, Canada. Arctic [serial on the Internet]. (2008, June), [cited July 28, 2009]; 61(2): 190-198. Available from: Environment Complete.
Machtans C. Songbird response to seismic lines in the western boreal forest: a manipulative experiment. Canadian Journal of Zoology [serial on the Internet]. (2006, Oct), [cited July 28, 2009]; 84(10): 1421-1430. Available from: Environment Complete.
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written by Matti K, July 28, 2009
I think you are deluded.
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written by Jon D, July 28, 2009
Well you certainly sound pleased with yourself, Mr Lee. Wow, what a hero, disrupting a bunch of university Geology students' work like that. Maybe for your next act of bravery, you can go and destroy some seismometers around volcanoes or the ground stations measuring continental drift!
I really wish people getting involved in things like this would do their research before acting! You couldnt even get the University that John Hole is working for right
I really wish people getting involved in things like this would do their research before acting! You couldnt even get the University that John Hole is working for right
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written by Nick, July 28, 2009
Your ignorance and knee-jerk capitulation to conspiracy theories --in the face of an appropriate and personal explanation given by the scientist in charge of the experiment!--gives environmentalism a bad name. You should A) be ashamed of yourself and B) reflect on the fact that the ecological knowledge you seem to prize comes directly from the likes of honest, curious scientists like Dr. Hole.
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written by Derek Bradford, July 28, 2009
Mr. Lee,
Your actions are disappointing, to say the least. At a time when communication with actual people has become as fragmented and sparse as it seems to be today, you were able to track down the lead researcher of a project that concerned you, and you held an extensive, in-depth conversation about the intricacies of the project. During the course of those discussions you were given ample information about the project and its scope, and you were provided with sufficient information to dive even deeper into the issue to determine whether your concerns held any validity. Unfortunately, it seems that you either declined to accept the information provided to you, or you unearthed a conspiracy so great that you felt compelled to act. Given the inherent transparency of science, I am inclined to suspect the former.
In so doing, you have yourself caused environmental harm. You have damaged, and possibly destroyed the collaborative work of several people, of which at least one of whom went out of their way to accommodate you. But I think the greatest impact your actions will have will be to further alienate your cause from other scientists. I cannot see how you can criticize (falsely, in the end) a group of scientists for not engaging the public as they perform their experiments, ignore everything they tell you--and destroy the work anyway--and then expect that your actions will have any positive impact on the relationship between scientists and radical environmentalists.
You had concerns (good), you asked questions to the right person (great), and then discounted everything you were told, without sufficient reason to do so (irresponsible), and then you destroyed their work. You bridged a gap between fringe environmentalism and legitimate science, and then you burned that bridge to the ground. Bravo.
Your actions are disappointing, to say the least. At a time when communication with actual people has become as fragmented and sparse as it seems to be today, you were able to track down the lead researcher of a project that concerned you, and you held an extensive, in-depth conversation about the intricacies of the project. During the course of those discussions you were given ample information about the project and its scope, and you were provided with sufficient information to dive even deeper into the issue to determine whether your concerns held any validity. Unfortunately, it seems that you either declined to accept the information provided to you, or you unearthed a conspiracy so great that you felt compelled to act. Given the inherent transparency of science, I am inclined to suspect the former.
In so doing, you have yourself caused environmental harm. You have damaged, and possibly destroyed the collaborative work of several people, of which at least one of whom went out of their way to accommodate you. But I think the greatest impact your actions will have will be to further alienate your cause from other scientists. I cannot see how you can criticize (falsely, in the end) a group of scientists for not engaging the public as they perform their experiments, ignore everything they tell you--and destroy the work anyway--and then expect that your actions will have any positive impact on the relationship between scientists and radical environmentalists.
You had concerns (good), you asked questions to the right person (great), and then discounted everything you were told, without sufficient reason to do so (irresponsible), and then you destroyed their work. You bridged a gap between fringe environmentalism and legitimate science, and then you burned that bridge to the ground. Bravo.
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written by Big John, July 28, 2009
You impose by violence what you can't achieve peacefully. Perhaps you have more in common with those neocons than you realize.
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written by Derek Bradford, July 28, 2009
Mr. Lee,
Your actions are disappointing, to say the least. At a time when communication with actual people has become as fragmented and sparse as it seems to be today, you were able to track down the lead researcher of a project that concerned you, and you held an extensive, in-depth conversation about the intricacies of the project. During the course of those discussions you were given ample information about the project and its scope, and you were provided with sufficient information to dive even deeper into the issue to determine whether your concerns held any validity. Unfortunately, it seems that you either declined to accept the information provided to you, or you unearthed a conspiracy so great that you felt compelled to act. Given the inherent transparency of science, I am inclined to suspect the former.
In so doing, you have yourself caused environmental harm. You have damaged, and possibly destroyed the collaborative work of several people, of which at least one of whom went out of their way to accommodate you. But I think the greatest impact your actions will have will be to further alienate your cause from other scientists. I cannot see how you can criticize (falsely, in the end) a group of scientists for not engaging the public as they perform their experiments, ignore everything they tell you--and destroy the work anyway--and then expect that your actions will have any positive impact on the relationship between scientists and radical environmentalists.
You had concerns (good), you asked questions to the right person (great), and then discounted everything you were told, without sufficient reason to do so (irresponsible), and then you destroyed their work. You bridged a gap between fringe environmentalism and legitimate science, and then you burned that bridge to the ground. Bravo.
Your actions are disappointing, to say the least. At a time when communication with actual people has become as fragmented and sparse as it seems to be today, you were able to track down the lead researcher of a project that concerned you, and you held an extensive, in-depth conversation about the intricacies of the project. During the course of those discussions you were given ample information about the project and its scope, and you were provided with sufficient information to dive even deeper into the issue to determine whether your concerns held any validity. Unfortunately, it seems that you either declined to accept the information provided to you, or you unearthed a conspiracy so great that you felt compelled to act. Given the inherent transparency of science, I am inclined to suspect the former.
In so doing, you have yourself caused environmental harm. You have damaged, and possibly destroyed the collaborative work of several people, of which at least one of whom went out of their way to accommodate you. But I think the greatest impact your actions will have will be to further alienate your cause from other scientists. I cannot see how you can criticize (falsely, in the end) a group of scientists for not engaging the public as they perform their experiments, ignore everything they tell you--and destroy the work anyway--and then expect that your actions will have any positive impact on the relationship between scientists and radical environmentalists.
You had concerns (good), you asked questions to the right person (great), and then discounted everything you were told, without sufficient reason to do so (irresponsible), and then you destroyed their work. You bridged a gap between fringe environmentalism and legitimate science, and then you burned that bridge to the ground. Bravo.
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Votes: +3
written by Captain Mike, July 28, 2009
Guess what? You're probably going to jail. Here are some tips for next time:
1) Don't commit crimes.
2) Having committed a crime, do not brag about it online.
3) Having bragged about it online, do NOT GIVE THE COPS YOUR GODDAMN REAL NAME AND ADDRESS.
1) Don't commit crimes.
2) Having committed a crime, do not brag about it online.
3) Having bragged about it online, do NOT GIVE THE COPS YOUR GODDAMN REAL NAME AND ADDRESS.
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written by afarensis, FCD, July 28, 2009
Before you sabotage an experiment, you should acctually learn what you are talkng about. You come across in those emails as a class a jack-ass.
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written by Scott R, July 28, 2009
Seems to me that Dr. Hole answered your questions courteously, honestly and in a way that refutes your objections. You vandalised anyway, contributing to the further ignorance of our planet and wastage of time and money that could be used for the betterment of all (except oil companies who have no need for this information).I mean, you have crazy illusions about this work being a secret ploy to help with oil drilling - this notion is exposed as a complete misconception, and you vandalise anyway!
What justification do you have? You come off as having no credibility at all. You are just a punk, trying to be radical - but you have no real cause. No better than a thug who walks into a bar and picks a fight with some random guy who then talks you out of your stupidity, so you go out side while no one is watching and cowardly slash his tires.
You are a fool and a joke. Go find some loggers to pester and leave science alone.
S/
What justification do you have? You come off as having no credibility at all. You are just a punk, trying to be radical - but you have no real cause. No better than a thug who walks into a bar and picks a fight with some random guy who then talks you out of your stupidity, so you go out side while no one is watching and cowardly slash his tires.
You are a fool and a joke. Go find some loggers to pester and leave science alone.
S/
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Votes: +7
written by Cokehead, July 28, 2009
Perhaps you should've contacted the organization in charge of the scientific experiment before destroying their equipment? It's obvious the man is being very honest, civil, and forward with you, and yet you berate him like he's a stupid monkey. I don't quite get it - he's noted that airplanes are louder than the blast that the seismic shot would've made, he's gotten approval of the local government (apparently that's secrecy?), and apparently the regional government. His team is made up of mostly student volunteers - and being students, are probably very environmentally minded.
I suspect you continue to deny Hole's civility because you realize what an idiot you've been for destroying a public institution's property. I hope you'll keep this in mind when you consider vandalizing someone else's property in the future.
On a personal note, I also hope they sue you. :)
-Cokehead
I suspect you continue to deny Hole's civility because you realize what an idiot you've been for destroying a public institution's property. I hope you'll keep this in mind when you consider vandalizing someone else's property in the future.
On a personal note, I also hope they sue you. :)
-Cokehead
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written by Chuck, July 28, 2009
It's good to see that Canada has its share of fundamentalist lunatics. Now I can point Canadian friends at this self-absorbed clown when they make fun of the idiots in the US.
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written by charlie lucas, July 28, 2009
I commend you for your forthright confession to this criminal act. High explosive emplaced that deep will cause localised temporary contamination of ground water, another crime I would guess. The most egregious thing is that there is no mention that the site is not your property. I mean really, this is cut and dried malicious property damage for bad, illogical and really stupid reasons with no social or natural side benefits. The birds are not harmed by noises, bangs, beeps, car horns or hysterical laughter. You personally are embarassing to people who do try to make a difference because you go off half-cocked, miss the point and fuck-up the people doing the research everyone benefits from. Now speaking to the delusion that there is some secret conspiracy to find oil in the coast range batholiths, there is and never will be any oil or gas in igneous granite rocks ever. The energy companies operate mostly in the open and proudly,lucratively brag about their reserves and while they may be quite evil they are not so stupid as to prospect where there is no energy to exploit. To put it simply, I don't believe you.
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Votes: +8
written by Jon, July 28, 2009
Lee, you are ignorant and, worse, you seem proud of your ignorance. In your email exchanges with Hole, he patiently answered your questions and offered you several opportunities to engage and learn more about the nature of his project. Instead of listening, you blasted rhetoric at him. You remind me of Sarah Palin in your capacity for arrogant stupidity. Well done on your meaningless, futile, and destructive venture.
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Votes: +6
written by Jacob Bendixen, July 28, 2009
Mr. Lee you are spewing nonsense.
Yours truly
Jacob Bendixen
Yours truly
Jacob Bendixen
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written by Eden, July 28, 2009
After having read the full discourse between you and Mr. Hole, and as a professional biologist myself, it appears that you have no grasp of the processes involved in this project. Research, especially geologic, is very difficult to get off the ground, both in terms of funding and appropriate environmental clearances. The researchers in question have been ethical, open, and cooperative in their attempts to follow the clearance route to the letter. In so doing, they clearly also thought that they had made the appropriate public notifications. My experience is that, although most public projects are required to incorporate some aspect of a public meeting, scoping, or other announcements, it is typically the citizens who do not respond or care when presented with the opportunity to do so.
Your anger is misplaced, and your communications with Mr. Hole quite rude. Mr. Hole certainly had no requirement to respond to you the first time, let alone following your subsequent emails. He extended offers for you to provide monitoring, or conduct additional studies on the impacts to biological resources, which you ignored fully. If you have a legitimate case against the project, the appropriate route would be to file legal complaints. I suspect that, in so doing, you would be told that you have no ground to stand on, given the clearances that Mr. Hole has already obtained through legitimate legal channels.
Knee-jerk reactions to projects - especially research projects - that you personally find offensive, for reasons based not on research or existing data, do not benefit anyone else; quite the opposite, it seems. Dismantling an approved research device without authority is still just the equivalent of destruction of private property, breaking and entering, or looting. If you had any moral or ethical ground to stand on previously, you lost it when you became just another punk law-breaker.
[Eden, I believe time was an element in this. The process of public outreach the team "thought" they had done was not done. Denny Island resident, pop. 75 or so, knew nothing of the tests until the vessel with the equipment arrived. Two years earlier, another "batholith" project, set for the marine environment was cancelled in the 11th hour due to the threat it posed to wildlife. As a scientist, do you believe the islanders unwise to be suspicious? ed.]
Your anger is misplaced, and your communications with Mr. Hole quite rude. Mr. Hole certainly had no requirement to respond to you the first time, let alone following your subsequent emails. He extended offers for you to provide monitoring, or conduct additional studies on the impacts to biological resources, which you ignored fully. If you have a legitimate case against the project, the appropriate route would be to file legal complaints. I suspect that, in so doing, you would be told that you have no ground to stand on, given the clearances that Mr. Hole has already obtained through legitimate legal channels.
Knee-jerk reactions to projects - especially research projects - that you personally find offensive, for reasons based not on research or existing data, do not benefit anyone else; quite the opposite, it seems. Dismantling an approved research device without authority is still just the equivalent of destruction of private property, breaking and entering, or looting. If you had any moral or ethical ground to stand on previously, you lost it when you became just another punk law-breaker.
[Eden, I believe time was an element in this. The process of public outreach the team "thought" they had done was not done. Denny Island resident, pop. 75 or so, knew nothing of the tests until the vessel with the equipment arrived. Two years earlier, another "batholith" project, set for the marine environment was cancelled in the 11th hour due to the threat it posed to wildlife. As a scientist, do you believe the islanders unwise to be suspicious? ed.]
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Votes: +12
written by KZT, July 28, 2009
Ingmar, It certainly does appear that you've have let ignorance and idealism lead you into a terrorist act against er...geologists. I can applaud your commitment, if not your intelligence or your basic research and communication skills.
From the emails and posts above, it also now appears that your original "reasons" for carrying out this act were utter er... crap so I'm interested to know: was it worth it? Will it be worth it when your cellmate wakes you up for a little fun or perhaps when you contemplate the ruin that was your bank account?
You are no martyr sir; merely a fool.
[do you find rape amusing, or fitting punishment in a civilized society? You are a sadist. ed.]
From the emails and posts above, it also now appears that your original "reasons" for carrying out this act were utter er... crap so I'm interested to know: was it worth it? Will it be worth it when your cellmate wakes you up for a little fun or perhaps when you contemplate the ruin that was your bank account?
You are no martyr sir; merely a fool.
[do you find rape amusing, or fitting punishment in a civilized society? You are a sadist. ed.]
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Votes: +6
written by scarshapedstar, July 28, 2009
Ingmar, I don't think this was wise, ethical, or legal. The scientists explained to you, quite graciously, that your concerns were misplaced, and then you went ahead and destroyed their experiment, which every freakin' one of us funded with our tax dollars.
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Votes: +5
written by scientist, July 28, 2009
wow... I can't believe how ignorant you really are. None of the animals are being hurt by this and it is important for us to know how our world works if we are to help save it.
ignorance never helped anyone...
plus this is not a violent machine
ignorance never helped anyone...
plus this is not a violent machine
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Votes: +7
written by Brett, July 28, 2009
This is truly something horrible. You destroyed the hard work of volunteer student science enthusiasts working with a small budget because you erroneously believed that they represented a fictional 1984-style black suit and tie government regime, then posted it on the internet in hopes of people supporting your wholly uncalled for and ignorant actions.
How on earth can you claim to be protecting nature while simultaneously refusing to learn anything about it?
How on earth can you claim to be protecting nature while simultaneously refusing to learn anything about it?
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Votes: +4
written by Jen, July 28, 2009
Science bad! Government bad! I got an idea in my head and no amount of information or "facts" is going to change that! Why didn't you just have a tea party, Mr. Lee? You would have gotten a lot more publicity, maybe gotten Sean Hannity involved. I think you two have a lot more in common than you think.
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written by Doug, July 28, 2009
I can't really see how "monkey wrenching" a harmless research project can be considered striking a blow for the earth. Activism is all well and good, but please back it up with some education, then put your impressive amount of energy to work doing something of real value.
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Votes: +3
written by Lyle, July 28, 2009
I too look forward to the consequences of your actions. I hope that you have to pay full restitution and are sentenced to a long prison term for your crimes. The damage you did was not only financial and environmental, but you have hindered scientific research, and you may have encouraged other know-it-all conspiracy theory wack-jobs to engage in other illegal and harmful behavior. I hope your long prison term is well publicized, so as to discourage others from committing terrorists acts such as yours.
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written by ECOA, July 28, 2009
Impressive. You have accomplished less than nothing, and have in fact actively hindered the cause you were "fighting" for, and now you risk the grievous injury of breaking your arm patting yourself on the back. Do a little research next time, please, and spare all of us your foolishness in the future.
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written by Cedric Katesby, July 28, 2009
Congratulation Ingmar, your foolishness is now famous!
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/geologists_get_to_suffer_with.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/geologists_get_to_suffer_with.php
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written by Dissapointed, July 28, 2009
Ingmar,
I'm an ecologist, an environmentalist and a scientist. The reasons you give for your action are exceptionally poor. It sounds as though you resorted to criminal action before attempting to go through legal channels. I know grant-review boards and scientists, and there are many checks and balances in place. If you had brought reasonable evidence before the boards that the seismic shot would cause environmental damage it would have been cancelled.
I can only assume that you didn't bring such evidence because 1) there is no evidence and you were acting on your emotions, or 2) that you possess such evidence but prefer the destructive approach.
Which is it?
You could have identified the geology of your region yourself, and you could have looked up the geology of petroleum formation yourself. I'm not a petroleum scientist but I did. You would have come to the conclusion that the petroleum industry had no part to play in this.
Behaviour such as yours sets the environmental movement back and causes us to be labelled as 'idiots' and 'terrorists'. As an environmentalist I'm extremely disappointed in you. As a scientist I weep for the completely un-necessary damage to equipment and the loss of knowledge.
Regards.
[Please read article before opining. Most of your erroneous assertions are addressed in Lee's statement. ed.]
I'm an ecologist, an environmentalist and a scientist. The reasons you give for your action are exceptionally poor. It sounds as though you resorted to criminal action before attempting to go through legal channels. I know grant-review boards and scientists, and there are many checks and balances in place. If you had brought reasonable evidence before the boards that the seismic shot would cause environmental damage it would have been cancelled.
I can only assume that you didn't bring such evidence because 1) there is no evidence and you were acting on your emotions, or 2) that you possess such evidence but prefer the destructive approach.
Which is it?
You could have identified the geology of your region yourself, and you could have looked up the geology of petroleum formation yourself. I'm not a petroleum scientist but I did. You would have come to the conclusion that the petroleum industry had no part to play in this.
Behaviour such as yours sets the environmental movement back and causes us to be labelled as 'idiots' and 'terrorists'. As an environmentalist I'm extremely disappointed in you. As a scientist I weep for the completely un-necessary damage to equipment and the loss of knowledge.
Regards.
[Please read article before opining. Most of your erroneous assertions are addressed in Lee's statement. ed.]
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Votes: +19
written by Joseph Kelly, July 28, 2009
Please don't claim to represent the environmental movement in any way. This is nothing better than dangerous, uninformed vandalism. You are setting us green-minded people back decades with stupidity like this.
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Votes: +20
written by James, July 28, 2009
After looking at the email correspondence I can only conclude you were going to take this action regardless of the responses or assurances of Dr. Hole. I don't think you're actions were well motivated or constructive and frankly disgusting. You're actions are hurting the people who would ordinarily help your cause. I wont say more since you are obviously a close minded individual
I sincerely hope Dr. Hole takes legal action for the damage you caused and that the BC government does the same for the environmental pollution you've cause in dismantling the explosives.
I sincerely hope Dr. Hole takes legal action for the damage you caused and that the BC government does the same for the environmental pollution you've cause in dismantling the explosives.
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Votes: +11
written by Azkyroth, July 28, 2009
Amusingly, I'm sure you think you're brave by doing this. Your failure to post my comment, and others critical of your position, is extremely telling. Coward.
[Mr. Lee has no hand in publishing on this page. The comment policies are plain enough, Azkyroth, so readers with the most meagre comprehension of the language can be included in the debate. Name-calling is not encouraged. ed.]
[Mr. Lee has no hand in publishing on this page. The comment policies are plain enough, Azkyroth, so readers with the most meagre comprehension of the language can be included in the debate. Name-calling is not encouraged. ed.]
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Votes: +7
written by Gregory Greenwood, July 28, 2009
I repect the fact that you believe that you are taking action to protect the environmemnt and I do not wish to impune your good intentions in any way but I must say that I think your action is misguided and potentially harmful to the broader environmentalist movement. I am only a layman, but it seema to me that the project that you chose to disrupt was designed to further the understanding of igneous rock strata and mountain range formation. Both the type of geological research being performed and the location where it was undertaken are inappropriate for any kind of covert oil surveying. I think most people would agree that it would be impractical to try to sink an oil well beneath a mountain range and oil bearing rocks are by definition young formation (in geological terms) sedimentary rocks that usually formed at the base of ancient seabeds where the deceased aquamarine fauna formed the necessary hydrocarbon complex; not igneous rocks that are deep earth, high temperature formations. The project in question appears to have been run on a shoestring while pursuing legitimate research goals. Lamentably, you may have unintentionally disrupted this legitimate research undertaken in the genuine pursuit of the advancement of scientific knowledge. Leaving aside the intrinsic scientific value of the project you chose to target, there are many individuals on the political right, particularly in the USA, that are seeking any excuse to de-legitimise the entire environmentalist movement along with such things as climate science, seeking to tar serious climatologist and environmental activists with the same brush as hardline 'eco-warriors' in order to block regulation and reform of such things as the petrochemical industry. I fear that the actions of individuals such as yourself, for all your doutless good intentions, may assist Exon Mobil and their ilk in this goal. There are better and more effective ways to pursue environmental issues than this. We have the good fortune to live in our respective liberal democracies afterall. You do have a voice, so use it. So called direct action is more often than not counterproductive and in this case may have harmed the advancement of our understanding of the natural world itself.
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written by Kevin Kooiker, July 28, 2009
I sincerely hope your confession here leads to your prosecution and conviction for the malicious destruction of property. Research projects of this nature operate on a shoestring at best, and cannot afford to deal with this sort of harassment. Restitution and probation may be appropriate, but a little jail time would be nice.
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Votes: +6
written by Pygmy Loris, July 28, 2009
Uninformed vandalism of research equipment is a ridiculous response to a small research project. You, Mr. Lee, are a disgrace to everyone who cares about both the environment and science.
By the way, the correct form of address for someone with a PhD. is Doctor.
By the way, the correct form of address for someone with a PhD. is Doctor.
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Votes: +9
written by Nick Zed, July 28, 2009
Mr. Lee seems to me like someone who is too absorbed in his conception of his own self-righteousness to engage in the kind of rational and level-headed discourse that Dr. Hole is trying to establish. He deserves nothing but our scorn and ridicule, and for the sake of both Canadian geological research and the environmental movement I sincerely hope his actions will lead to prosecution and conviction.
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Votes: +11
written by thegoodatheist, July 28, 2009
Not exactly a stunning moment of brilliance there. I'm not sure you really considered all the consequences of you actions. You intention may have been noble, but nobility alone does not make one's actions correct. By sabotaging the experiment, you've failed in your attempt to preserve wildlife. Instead, you have not caused them more harm.
Scientists are people like you and me; they care about the environment enough not to damage it needlessly. You are not fighting against an evil corporation here; these are just geologists invested in understanding the local area better. You, on the other hand, are a well meaning crackpot with way too much time on his hands. Perhaps you should put your obviously active mind to better use by reading more books. At least ones that are written by serious scientists.
Scientists are people like you and me; they care about the environment enough not to damage it needlessly. You are not fighting against an evil corporation here; these are just geologists invested in understanding the local area better. You, on the other hand, are a well meaning crackpot with way too much time on his hands. Perhaps you should put your obviously active mind to better use by reading more books. At least ones that are written by serious scientists.
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written by ScottB, July 28, 2009
Congratulations Mr Lee, you've removed doubt from my mind. I am now completely convinced that there is absolutely no difference between and the right wing conspiracy nuts like Beck, O'Reilly, Bachmann and Limbaugh. I'll be waiting for your next essay about how Obama forged his birth certificate so he spread secret communist drugs throughout the country by way of jet contrails.
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written by Ben, July 28, 2009
...seems like burning stupid anti-science isn't just limited to conservatives.
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written by Susannah Anderson, July 28, 2009
Here; next time you think of "saving the environment", go learn a thing or two first. From scientists, not conspiracy theorists.
I used to live in Bella Coola, and now live on the Lower Mainland. We visit Reifel Island, a stone's throw from the airport, and crowded with hundreds of visitors every week. The sandhill cranes nest and rear their young quite happily there.
I used to live in Bella Coola, and now live on the Lower Mainland. We visit Reifel Island, a stone's throw from the airport, and crowded with hundreds of visitors every week. The sandhill cranes nest and rear their young quite happily there.
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written by Science Tweaks My Whiskers, July 28, 2009
There be lots of telescopes around these parts. They're going to need some smashin'.
This message will biodegrade in 30 years.
This message will biodegrade in 30 years.
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written by Chad Blinman, July 28, 2009
I'm sorry to have to join in with the flood of chastising you're receiving here, but what you did was nothing more noble than destructive vandalism. Your "environmentalist" motives may be useful on the surface, but the way you acted on them was idiotic. I hope your example helps others (and yourself) to understand that this was not the way to advance your agenda.
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written by Staphylococcus, July 28, 2009
I am thoroughly confused as to why you even bothered to ask Dr Hole about the research project when you completely refused to listen to anything he had to say. Commiting the act without communications with the scientists involved would have merely revealed ignorance and a misguided sense of assertive action. But in actually engaging the researchers, totally ignoring everything they said, proceeding to vandalise their equipment anyway, and then (and here's the clincher) posting a public record of the exchange demonstrating that Dr Hole was honest and upfront just goes to show us how increadibly stupid you are. Next time, crack a book.
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haha, Lowly rated comment [Show]
written by Mike McCants, July 28, 2009
I think your action was reprehensible.
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written by TaiYoukai, July 28, 2009
You sir are no scientist, are destructive towards research and the very type of person who is despised for their destructiveness.
May you be prosecuted to the fullest extant of the Law.
You are no hero.
May you be prosecuted to the fullest extant of the Law.
You are no hero.
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written by ThemCo. Oil and Gas, July 28, 2009
Agent Godwin,
The agreed upon sum has been wired to your account. By the wy, that was a brilliant touch, boldly announcing your culpability in writing. That makes environmentalists look credulous, violent AND stupid. Just brilliant. Oh, Dan in Ops is still howling about the "whales with bleeding ears". Just don't overplay your hand or you risk looking like too much of an idiot. They're having a field day with this in the science press. Can't wait for tomorrow. Good work.
CX88_bA
TOG_OSA
The agreed upon sum has been wired to your account. By the wy, that was a brilliant touch, boldly announcing your culpability in writing. That makes environmentalists look credulous, violent AND stupid. Just brilliant. Oh, Dan in Ops is still howling about the "whales with bleeding ears". Just don't overplay your hand or you risk looking like too much of an idiot. They're having a field day with this in the science press. Can't wait for tomorrow. Good work.
CX88_bA
TOG_OSA
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written by Don, July 28, 2009
I am astounded that you bragged about this act of vandalism. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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written by rcn2, July 28, 2009
Well done. Just run in and create ruin without a thought for others. If it isn't the oil companies, it's the environmentalists.
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written by dylan, July 28, 2009
Scientific research is the last thing that you should be attacking. I am with you in intention, but your choice of target was one of the worst possible. Arent there any loggers or real estate developers in your area? You are hurting our cause and disrupting scientific progress. Science is fundamental to learning about what we are trying to preserve.
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written by Jolo, July 28, 2009
You talk about how the sandhill cranes are mostly situated near the aerodrome, and then follow that up with comments about how they need "utterly intact, silent, solitary wilderness". Why then are they prospering at the aerodrome?
Did you talk to the Heiltsuk Nation or the CRD before you dismantled the project?
Finally, one last question, how many of the 80 residents did you talk to?
I wish you would not try to be the Lone Ranger and instead talk directly to the people that Dr Hole stated knew. Actions like yours can only lead to more secretive actions by researchers legitimately studying science as it is obvious that there will be those that go off half-cocked and without knowing any of the proper information.
Please Mr Lee, before you do your next environmental activist work, contact the sources that were provided.
I did some reading around the internet, and the University of Arizona was posting articles and forms on their website to do this research as early as 2008. Also, the explosives which you damaged ended up being detonated in the first place, did you hear the explosion, or only the explosion of the cords you cut?
Did you talk to the Heiltsuk Nation or the CRD before you dismantled the project?
Finally, one last question, how many of the 80 residents did you talk to?
I wish you would not try to be the Lone Ranger and instead talk directly to the people that Dr Hole stated knew. Actions like yours can only lead to more secretive actions by researchers legitimately studying science as it is obvious that there will be those that go off half-cocked and without knowing any of the proper information.
Please Mr Lee, before you do your next environmental activist work, contact the sources that were provided.
I did some reading around the internet, and the University of Arizona was posting articles and forms on their website to do this research as early as 2008. Also, the explosives which you damaged ended up being detonated in the first place, did you hear the explosion, or only the explosion of the cords you cut?
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written by James Dunlop, July 29, 2009
While I understand why you feel the need to side with your poster, you risk exposing yourself to the same ridicule and public shame he so deserves. Your comments haven't helped the discussion any, and are at times hypocritical. For example, your postscript to "Dissapointed" was "[Please read article before opining. Most of your erroneous assertions are addressed in Lee's statement. ed.]"
Having carefully re-read Lee's statement, I see no such indication that the poster's assertions were erroneous. Dr. Hole went through all the necessary legal channels, including contacting the FN representatives. He made this clear to Mr. Lee well before Mr. Lee decided to engage in his felonious behaviour. Furthermore, the comparison with the 2007 marine survey is fatuous - in the former (following from Mr. Lee's own link), researchers planned to induce a 236-decibel sound every 20-60 seconds, twenty-four hours a day, for three weeks. Concerns as to sonic disruption of local wildlife are entirely in order with such a long-term project. The shot Mr. Lee damaged was a single, sharp blast in whose vicinity Dr. Hole indicated he intended to stay during the shot. Further, Mr. Lee reports observing the cranes from the aerodrome - where the noise of planes would be longer and more disruptive than a single sharp blast could possibly be. So of Mr. Lee's stated reasons for this act of vandalism and subsequent environmental damage, only (a) could be valid - and it sounds as though Dr. Hole was genuinely sorry that his substantial efforts had somehow not reached the islanders.
So, no, I don't think the posters assertions were erroneous, nor do I think you're justified in your implications that there was a larger conspiracy at work behind these blue-sky research scientists.
I do think that Mr. Lee is an idiot who has done more harm for the environmentalist cause in a day than a constructive activist can repair in a year, and who may have made the impact on the local environment all the worse by his actions. It's your site, Editor, and your sandbox, so you can continue to make your knowing statements if you wish, but I personally wouldn't want any organization that I respected to be in any way associated with this idiot's behaviour.
Having carefully re-read Lee's statement, I see no such indication that the poster's assertions were erroneous. Dr. Hole went through all the necessary legal channels, including contacting the FN representatives. He made this clear to Mr. Lee well before Mr. Lee decided to engage in his felonious behaviour. Furthermore, the comparison with the 2007 marine survey is fatuous - in the former (following from Mr. Lee's own link), researchers planned to induce a 236-decibel sound every 20-60 seconds, twenty-four hours a day, for three weeks. Concerns as to sonic disruption of local wildlife are entirely in order with such a long-term project. The shot Mr. Lee damaged was a single, sharp blast in whose vicinity Dr. Hole indicated he intended to stay during the shot. Further, Mr. Lee reports observing the cranes from the aerodrome - where the noise of planes would be longer and more disruptive than a single sharp blast could possibly be. So of Mr. Lee's stated reasons for this act of vandalism and subsequent environmental damage, only (a) could be valid - and it sounds as though Dr. Hole was genuinely sorry that his substantial efforts had somehow not reached the islanders.
So, no, I don't think the posters assertions were erroneous, nor do I think you're justified in your implications that there was a larger conspiracy at work behind these blue-sky research scientists.
I do think that Mr. Lee is an idiot who has done more harm for the environmentalist cause in a day than a constructive activist can repair in a year, and who may have made the impact on the local environment all the worse by his actions. It's your site, Editor, and your sandbox, so you can continue to make your knowing statements if you wish, but I personally wouldn't want any organization that I respected to be in any way associated with this idiot's behaviour.
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written by Alex Allen, July 29, 2009
Dr Hole has made every attempt to reason with you and you refuse to reply civilly or answer any of his points while he has made every attempt to answer yours. This makes it very difficult to have sympathy with your situation. I think you should do more research before attempting direct action.
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written by Jeremy O'Wheel, July 29, 2009
G'day Ingmar Lee,
I am an arts/science student at the University of Tasmania in Australia. I am planning on majoring in Ecology and Environmental Studies. Prior to studying at university I have spent the last 4 years working for The Wilderness Society (www.wilderness.org.au) trying to protect Australia's native environment. Apart from that time I have also spent many hours volunteering my time to help out on a number of specific environmental issues that we face in Tasmania, and in other parts of the world. I am also a vegetarian for purely environmental concerns (I don't have much problem with killing cows in general, but I'm concerned with the effect the meat industry has on the planet).
I am sure that most people who know me see me as a serious and committed environmentalist.
None the less I think your actions were terrible and uninformed. I find it hard to believe that you'd take such drastic actions without doing any serious research first.
The only reason we are aware of any of the problems with the environment is because of the work of scientists and I believe it's fairly clear that most of the solutions to these problems also rely on improving our understandings of the world through science. Disrupting scientific research is ultimately damaging to the environmental movement, and especially when your actions are so uninformed. Even if the impact of your damage is minimal, you're representing the environmentalist movement and your actions will confirm many people's view that environmentalists are radical anarchists whose actions are based on dogmatic ideology rather than reasoned arguments.
The environmental problems facing the world are, in my opinion, exceptionally serious. We're not going to be able to solve these problems unless a large majority of people agree that their problems. This is why it's so important that all environmental activists think strategically about their actions and concern themselves with how they'll be perceived.
I appreciate the general sentiments of your actions but I really wish you had have done far more research before carrying out any actions and that you had have spent some time thinking about what was actually going on and the full consequences of your actions.
Kind Regards,
I am an arts/science student at the University of Tasmania in Australia. I am planning on majoring in Ecology and Environmental Studies. Prior to studying at university I have spent the last 4 years working for The Wilderness Society (www.wilderness.org.au) trying to protect Australia's native environment. Apart from that time I have also spent many hours volunteering my time to help out on a number of specific environmental issues that we face in Tasmania, and in other parts of the world. I am also a vegetarian for purely environmental concerns (I don't have much problem with killing cows in general, but I'm concerned with the effect the meat industry has on the planet).
I am sure that most people who know me see me as a serious and committed environmentalist.
None the less I think your actions were terrible and uninformed. I find it hard to believe that you'd take such drastic actions without doing any serious research first.
The only reason we are aware of any of the problems with the environment is because of the work of scientists and I believe it's fairly clear that most of the solutions to these problems also rely on improving our understandings of the world through science. Disrupting scientific research is ultimately damaging to the environmental movement, and especially when your actions are so uninformed. Even if the impact of your damage is minimal, you're representing the environmentalist movement and your actions will confirm many people's view that environmentalists are radical anarchists whose actions are based on dogmatic ideology rather than reasoned arguments.
The environmental problems facing the world are, in my opinion, exceptionally serious. We're not going to be able to solve these problems unless a large majority of people agree that their problems. This is why it's so important that all environmental activists think strategically about their actions and concern themselves with how they'll be perceived.
I appreciate the general sentiments of your actions but I really wish you had have done far more research before carrying out any actions and that you had have spent some time thinking about what was actually going on and the full consequences of your actions.
Kind Regards,
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written by MacTurk, July 29, 2009
Mr Lee,
At best, you are walking proof of the adage "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". At worst, you are a self-obsessed narcissistic loon who is armour clad in his own self-righteousness and invincible ignorance, and therefore a danger to himself and anyone near him. I have read your correspondence with the geologists in question, and your replies tell everyone quite clearly that your brain is set on "Broadcast", not "Receive". Except for the danger you pose to yourself and others, you are a rather pitiable figure. You do really needs to get out more and engage in debate with people who do actually know what they are doing/talking about. You also need to stop dealinng with the world as a comic book. Could I suggest that you try to get some formal education in the area you claim to be so passionate about? After your well deserved punishment, of course.
At best, you are walking proof of the adage "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". At worst, you are a self-obsessed narcissistic loon who is armour clad in his own self-righteousness and invincible ignorance, and therefore a danger to himself and anyone near him. I have read your correspondence with the geologists in question, and your replies tell everyone quite clearly that your brain is set on "Broadcast", not "Receive". Except for the danger you pose to yourself and others, you are a rather pitiable figure. You do really needs to get out more and engage in debate with people who do actually know what they are doing/talking about. You also need to stop dealinng with the world as a comic book. Could I suggest that you try to get some formal education in the area you claim to be so passionate about? After your well deserved punishment, of course.
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written by Andy, July 29, 2009
Instead of here, everyone should visit Ingmar's site here and leave a comment:
http://www.ingmarlee.com/content/view/16/41/
http://www.ingmarlee.com/content/view/16/41/
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written by Irene Decker, July 29, 2009
Length does not make your writing convincing.
I fear you just wanted to find ANY justification to smash up something.
Not cool, boyo.
I fear you just wanted to find ANY justification to smash up something.
Not cool, boyo.
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written by Lotharloo, July 29, 2009
I do not have much to add but I will only say that before digging a much larger hole for yourself, apologize, admit your mistake, and try to compensate the damage you have caused.
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written by DynamicUno, July 29, 2009
I think the only reasonable course of action for you to take at this juncture is to offer to pay for the damage you caused to a legitimate experiment. Vigilante vandalism is not something that reasonable people find acceptable.
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written by omar ali, July 29, 2009
This was uninformed vandalism and this kind of ignorant (and occasionally dangerous) posturing is going to give serious environmentalists a really bad name. Please cease and desist from such ignorant grandstanding in the future.
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written by Dax, July 29, 2009
Let me guess
Liberal Arts and welding
Liberal Arts and welding
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Not defending Lee, but..., Lowly rated comment [Show]
written by J. R. Hodel, July 30, 2009
I live about 10 miles from a mountain top removal mine in West Virginia, USA. They detonate explosions on a regular schedule that involve thousands of tons of a wide variety of explosives. We can feel the impact of these huge explosions at our farm just north of the Mud River Hobet Mine.
At the same time, we have woods full of wild turkey, owls, deer, turtles, a wide variety of amphibians, birds, and ground nesting birds such as killdeer, grouse (they scare the living c**p out of you when the take off right at your feet!!), turkey, and so forth.
I also spend time in the winter in SE Arizona, where tens of thousands of sandhill cranes overwinter, in Cochise County. This is a rural area filled with huge irrigated farms. Many of the pumps for these large-scale installations are powered by un-muffled diesel V-8 engines, which can be heard for miles. It doesn't seem to bother the cranes, as they continue to return to the Arizona desert, even though the lake they used to live in and around dried up after an earthquake decades ago.
The research you vandalized would reveal information about geologic processes that will eventually lead to a better understanding of how earthquakes occur, and how we can detect the forces that cause earthquakes accumulating.
I am - it is difficult for me to describe how disappointed I am by your unthinking reactionary act of solitary violence! You prove your lack of understanding of the scientific method, the process by which people can participate in learning about proposed scientific study, and proper methods for resisting dangerous experiments.
After spending a career working in environmental protection, I am really saddened by your uneducated and unethical actions which will damage the work of so many scientists and students.
Better luck next time!
JR
At the same time, we have woods full of wild turkey, owls, deer, turtles, a wide variety of amphibians, birds, and ground nesting birds such as killdeer, grouse (they scare the living c**p out of you when the take off right at your feet!!), turkey, and so forth.
I also spend time in the winter in SE Arizona, where tens of thousands of sandhill cranes overwinter, in Cochise County. This is a rural area filled with huge irrigated farms. Many of the pumps for these large-scale installations are powered by un-muffled diesel V-8 engines, which can be heard for miles. It doesn't seem to bother the cranes, as they continue to return to the Arizona desert, even though the lake they used to live in and around dried up after an earthquake decades ago.
The research you vandalized would reveal information about geologic processes that will eventually lead to a better understanding of how earthquakes occur, and how we can detect the forces that cause earthquakes accumulating.
I am - it is difficult for me to describe how disappointed I am by your unthinking reactionary act of solitary violence! You prove your lack of understanding of the scientific method, the process by which people can participate in learning about proposed scientific study, and proper methods for resisting dangerous experiments.
After spending a career working in environmental protection, I am really saddened by your uneducated and unethical actions which will damage the work of so many scientists and students.
Better luck next time!
JR
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written by EmmaLSRG, July 30, 2009
"I accept full and sole responsibilty [sic] for my action and look forward to the consequences."
So you are turning yourself in when? Failure to do so changes your actions from civil disobedience/direct action to vandalism pure and simple.
In 1980, the Plowshares 8 (Daniel & Phillip Berrigan, & 6 other activists) broke into the GE Nuclear Missile facility in King of Prussia, PA. They poured their own blood on files and damaged several nuclear missile nose cones. They then left the plant, sat down, and waited to be arrested.
There are 3 points here that you need to understand from their example. 1) You did not stick around to accept responsibility. 2) Their actions, like all Plowshares actions, were committed to non-violence against humans. By ineptly destroying a seismic shot you contaminated the environment, not only endangering humans, but also the very ecosystem you say you are concerned about.
Additionally, your tactics were crude, and so have garnered a great deal of negative reaction. While 'heroic eco-warrior' tactics may be immensely gratifying, they are usually self-defeating. You could have relocated the offending equipment. You could have organized residents to greet the geologists when they landed and compelled the community consultation you say was needed. Instead, you went off on solo mission to save the Earth.
And this brings me to my third point. Unlike any of the Plowshares activists, you did not consult or deliberate with other activists. Other than corresponding with Dr. Cole, you appear to have done no research on the project. Furthermore, you did not present him with any evidence regarding the 2007 batholiths project. Nor did you provide him with any evidence that the seismic shocks would travel as far as the crane nesting sites. Since your actions appear to have no scientific basis they seem irrational and your actions did not advance environmental preservation.
Your concerns may have been valid; and given a better set of tactics may have even been recognized by Dr. Cole. But your actions have now painted those concerns with the colors of irrationality due to property destruction and the contamination of the environment.
So you are turning yourself in when? Failure to do so changes your actions from civil disobedience/direct action to vandalism pure and simple.
In 1980, the Plowshares 8 (Daniel & Phillip Berrigan, & 6 other activists) broke into the GE Nuclear Missile facility in King of Prussia, PA. They poured their own blood on files and damaged several nuclear missile nose cones. They then left the plant, sat down, and waited to be arrested.
There are 3 points here that you need to understand from their example. 1) You did not stick around to accept responsibility. 2) Their actions, like all Plowshares actions, were committed to non-violence against humans. By ineptly destroying a seismic shot you contaminated the environment, not only endangering humans, but also the very ecosystem you say you are concerned about.
Additionally, your tactics were crude, and so have garnered a great deal of negative reaction. While 'heroic eco-warrior' tactics may be immensely gratifying, they are usually self-defeating. You could have relocated the offending equipment. You could have organized residents to greet the geologists when they landed and compelled the community consultation you say was needed. Instead, you went off on solo mission to save the Earth.
And this brings me to my third point. Unlike any of the Plowshares activists, you did not consult or deliberate with other activists. Other than corresponding with Dr. Cole, you appear to have done no research on the project. Furthermore, you did not present him with any evidence regarding the 2007 batholiths project. Nor did you provide him with any evidence that the seismic shocks would travel as far as the crane nesting sites. Since your actions appear to have no scientific basis they seem irrational and your actions did not advance environmental preservation.
Your concerns may have been valid; and given a better set of tactics may have even been recognized by Dr. Cole. But your actions have now painted those concerns with the colors of irrationality due to property destruction and the contamination of the environment.
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written by FosterDisbelief, July 30, 2009
As a fellow environmentalist, I understand your concern and desire to prevent damage to the local wildlife and there habitat. I worked for the Sierra Club fighting for wetland protection in the Tampa area, among other projects. Industry and development sometimes ignores the impact they have on the earth, and people need to be educated and speak out to protect our most valuable resource.
That being said, I feel that your knee-jerk actions have given the environmental movement a black eye. Science is vital to our future. Science is the way to find cleaner sources of power. Science is the way to understand how ecosystems work, and discover the best way to protect and save them. Science is the way to insure that both man and the other animals have a planet to share. Science is vital to convince the population of man made climate change.
Science is also underfunded. Sure, biased studies bought and paid for by specific corporations or individuals may have a near unlimited budget. But real, unbiased, vital science is underfunded, and people like Sarah Palin and her ilk want to take more of that funding away. (Remember her comments on fruit fly research?)
The science you disrupted was not harmful to the environment. It was not biased, or funded by corrupt men in mirrored shades. Like the "heroes" who break into animal research labs, "rescueing" the animals, only to release them on the side of the highway to be turned into roadkill or eaten by quite surprised (but delighted) predators, you failed to think your master plan through to the end, and forgot to make sure the project deserved your actions.
I care about the planet, and hope we can turn around much of the damage we have caused. I also hope you are arrested and forced to pay for the damage you caused and the time you robbed from these scientists. Perhaps you can use the time in jail to reevaluate the actions you use to "protect" the planet, and find a better outlet for your passion for the cause.
That being said, I feel that your knee-jerk actions have given the environmental movement a black eye. Science is vital to our future. Science is the way to find cleaner sources of power. Science is the way to understand how ecosystems work, and discover the best way to protect and save them. Science is the way to insure that both man and the other animals have a planet to share. Science is vital to convince the population of man made climate change.
Science is also underfunded. Sure, biased studies bought and paid for by specific corporations or individuals may have a near unlimited budget. But real, unbiased, vital science is underfunded, and people like Sarah Palin and her ilk want to take more of that funding away. (Remember her comments on fruit fly research?)
The science you disrupted was not harmful to the environment. It was not biased, or funded by corrupt men in mirrored shades. Like the "heroes" who break into animal research labs, "rescueing" the animals, only to release them on the side of the highway to be turned into roadkill or eaten by quite surprised (but delighted) predators, you failed to think your master plan through to the end, and forgot to make sure the project deserved your actions.
I care about the planet, and hope we can turn around much of the damage we have caused. I also hope you are arrested and forced to pay for the damage you caused and the time you robbed from these scientists. Perhaps you can use the time in jail to reevaluate the actions you use to "protect" the planet, and find a better outlet for your passion for the cause.
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written by David, July 30, 2009
I'm baffled that you posted the full correspondance between yourself and Dr. Hole. The dialog shows that you were being very rude and accusatory and that Dr. Hole was being very patient and gracious with you. It does not paint you in a good light.
The fact that you posted it yourself shows that you have been close-minded throughout the process. Dr. Hole was being the opposite of secretive. You simply refused to listen to anything he had to say.
Relax and listen. Oh, and turn yourself in.
The fact that you posted it yourself shows that you have been close-minded throughout the process. Dr. Hole was being the opposite of secretive. You simply refused to listen to anything he had to say.
Relax and listen. Oh, and turn yourself in.
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written by nixar, July 30, 2009
... and killing millions, and eventually, billions of nice little critters. Instead of opposing big business, you chose to harass and hamper bona fide scientific research, just to "save" (very unlikely in actuality) a couple nests. You're to environmentalism what 9/11 truthers are to the peace movement -- a very useful idiot for the bastards in power, discrediting by your misguided and pointless actions the hard work and sacrifices of those fighting the good fight.
And on top of that, you're proud of it, marching to jail like a martyr. You're not. You're a fool. A contemptible fool. Let me register here my utmost contempt for your stupidity. (Oil, under a mountain? Why not unicorns? Have no you no sense of ridicule? Do you know where oil is pumped out of? Saudi Arabia, Texas, Gulf of Mexico, North Sea ... oh yeah that's so mountainous indeed)
And on top of that, you're proud of it, marching to jail like a martyr. You're not. You're a fool. A contemptible fool. Let me register here my utmost contempt for your stupidity. (Oil, under a mountain? Why not unicorns? Have no you no sense of ridicule? Do you know where oil is pumped out of? Saudi Arabia, Texas, Gulf of Mexico, North Sea ... oh yeah that's so mountainous indeed)
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written by Anon, August 02, 2009
It is sad that someone can dismantle a research project geared towards furthering humanities understanding of the world around us and brag about it. It is admirable that you care about the animals around you, but always remember that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You are just a silly, silly man.
p.s. To avoid being labeled a "name caller", allow me to define silly and how I choose to have it applied in this situation. From the Merriam Webster dictionary (I have left out some for brevity's sake):
1 archaic : helpless, weak
2 weak in intellect : foolish b: exhibiting or indicative of a lack of common sense or sound judgment c: trifling, frivolous
So, when I call you a silly, silly man, I am referring to the second option. I think it is an apt description of you in regards to your actions.
p.s. To avoid being labeled a "name caller", allow me to define silly and how I choose to have it applied in this situation. From the Merriam Webster dictionary (I have left out some for brevity's sake):
1 archaic : helpless, weak
2 weak in intellect : foolish b: exhibiting or indicative of a lack of common sense or sound judgment c: trifling, frivolous
So, when I call you a silly, silly man, I am referring to the second option. I think it is an apt description of you in regards to your actions.
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written by Anonymous, August 03, 2009
Scientists, by and large, tend to be in favor of protecting the very environment they're studying. Sabotaging their projects (especially this ineffectually) only serves to hurt the environmental movement by making everyone look like a bunch of rabid eco-terrorists.
I would think the best way to fight oil companies would be to post up documents about their plans, internal emails, memos, what have you, onto Wikileaks.org - that way you can put up things that are damning to the companies in an untraceable fashion, leaving you free to fight more companies, instead of arrested for trespassing, handling explosives without a license, and facing civil charges for damages.
Do you actually have any proof of this project's ties to oil companies?
Sincerely,
Anonymous
I would think the best way to fight oil companies would be to post up documents about their plans, internal emails, memos, what have you, onto Wikileaks.org - that way you can put up things that are damning to the companies in an untraceable fashion, leaving you free to fight more companies, instead of arrested for trespassing, handling explosives without a license, and facing civil charges for damages.
Do you actually have any proof of this project's ties to oil companies?
Sincerely,
Anonymous
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written by Ingmar , August 08, 2009
Contrary to the numerous comments which are arriving by email and which are overwhelmingly supportive of my recent 'Batholiths' action, here on pacificfreepress, the commentary is consistently negative. Having read through all these comments, one notices a distinct similarity in vocabulary, size of response, outright abusive sneering, as well as a clearly American origination. It is also clear that the writer(s)? observes a semi-religious obeisance to some sort of sanctity of the scientific process. (In a world were the science is bought and sold that proves that black is white, such is a 'fanaticism of scientism.') I'm not sure what sort of source analysis pacificfreepress is using to examine its readership, but my hunch is that most of the above commentary originates from a single writer, or, at least, from a common geographical location, -such as the Virginia Tech campus, I suspect. Here in BC, scientists graduating from the UBC 'forestry' department can each look forward to careers justifying the status-quo environmental massacre that is industrial logging, in the same way as geophysicists graduating from any number of oil-town universities will spend their careers in the employ of the oil and gas industry. I'm not opposed to science or the scientific process, -but it is a tragic reality that science, all too often, is bought to justify dreadfully destructive projects.
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written by AllThingsBrightAndMagnificent, August 09, 2009
Dear Ingmar,
As a pseudonymous correspondent of many voices albeit none of them on this particular thread, I wish to say that I am among the (I believe) many who quite frankly admire most of your initiatives. The Bear Mountain mineral claim is a tour-de-force. This is a stroke of brilliance. There is no doubt that to protect the land, any land, irrespective of nation, requires a degree of agility "outside the box." All the scientists and environmental groups, and independent media—none of these will save the wilderness you hold so dear. In short, you are doing the right thing. For me, however, among others, you crossed a line with this project. One can understand that you were on one hand following the myopic rhetorical pathway of the environmental groups around you—those who declared total war against the previous Batholiths (water based) project brazenly exploiting scientific error in questions of acoustic resonance in water that—and on the other hand, your accurate intuition that many people involved in the Denny Island blast are oil geologists anyway. If the opportunity exists, I would be happy to contribute to your legal defense, because you need to be free to continue your struggle. But make no mistake about it, you did something evil to people very close to both of us. "cheers."
["Evil" Please. And why are you 'pseudonymous' afraid to come out into the open? You also have a problem in answering the points made it seems. ed.]
As a pseudonymous correspondent of many voices albeit none of them on this particular thread, I wish to say that I am among the (I believe) many who quite frankly admire most of your initiatives. The Bear Mountain mineral claim is a tour-de-force. This is a stroke of brilliance. There is no doubt that to protect the land, any land, irrespective of nation, requires a degree of agility "outside the box." All the scientists and environmental groups, and independent media—none of these will save the wilderness you hold so dear. In short, you are doing the right thing. For me, however, among others, you crossed a line with this project. One can understand that you were on one hand following the myopic rhetorical pathway of the environmental groups around you—those who declared total war against the previous Batholiths (water based) project brazenly exploiting scientific error in questions of acoustic resonance in water that—and on the other hand, your accurate intuition that many people involved in the Denny Island blast are oil geologists anyway. If the opportunity exists, I would be happy to contribute to your legal defense, because you need to be free to continue your struggle. But make no mistake about it, you did something evil to people very close to both of us. "cheers."
["Evil" Please. And why are you 'pseudonymous' afraid to come out into the open? You also have a problem in answering the points made it seems. ed.]
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written by tbell, August 11, 2009
I'm guessing no...
Mr. Lee, in your most recent response above you address the tone of the rest of the comments but not the substance. I would be very curious to read your rebuttal to some of the more reasonable arguments.
You also ascribe the majority of the comments to a single person or organization. I hate to break it to you, but you are not important enough to be the target of an organized plot. This site has seen the traffic that it has because it was linked to on the popular science blog, Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyn...r_with.php). You can take off the tinfoil hat now.
Mr. Lee, in your most recent response above you address the tone of the rest of the comments but not the substance. I would be very curious to read your rebuttal to some of the more reasonable arguments.
You also ascribe the majority of the comments to a single person or organization. I hate to break it to you, but you are not important enough to be the target of an organized plot. This site has seen the traffic that it has because it was linked to on the popular science blog, Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyn...r_with.php). You can take off the tinfoil hat now.
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